THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Civil Rights Series
INTERVIEW WITH: Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
DATE: 16 December 1993
PLACE: Houston, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe
W: This is Cheri Wolfe and it's December 16, 1993, I'm in the home of photographer Benny Joseph in Houston, and we're going to be talking about the civil rights movement in Houston and its aftermath.
Where were you born, Mr. Joseph?
J: I was born in Lake Charles, Louisiana.
W: Uh-huh.
J: December 10, 1924.
W: And your parents' names?
J: My mother was named Alberta Joseph and my daddy was named Willie (Willis ?) Joseph.
W: What did they do?
J: I don't know about him. He died when I was two years old. He had appendicitis. And my mother was a domestic worker. I don't know too much about my ... in fact, I don't remember my father at all. And my sister was only 10 days old when he died. So she doesn't know anything about him. In fact, I haven't even seen a picture of him, you know. Nobody in the family hasn't ... even know what he looks like. So we have. I have tried to find pictures of him, but I don't know too much about his family.
I felt bad one time. A young lady called here one time and asked me if I had any relatives in Grand Prairie, and I concentrated and I said, "No, I believe not." The only Grand Prairie I knew was over there by ... up there around Dallas. And there's supposed to be a Grand Prairie, Louisiana. Not too far from where my mother's home is in Opelousas. I never heard of it. (laughter) And I didn't ... didn't find out who she was or what she wanted. And after I told her I didn't have any relatives in this little town, we just hung up. Then when I was visiting my cousin one time, which he isn't much older than I am, and I started telling him about that, he said, "Yeah, your daddy's from Grand Prairie. Right down the highway from here." I was in Opelousas at that time when I was talking about it. Then I said, "Well, I'll bet she was trying to look for some of her relatives. (laughter) And it was ... I don't know too many Josephs any where. Anyway, I got on a tangent there ...
W: No, that's alright. I was wondering ... what was it like growing up black in Louisiana? Did your mother ...
J: No, I didn't live there. I came to Houston when I was two years old. So I don't remember coming here. .....
W: So you've spent most of your life here in Houston?
J: Yeah, oh, yeah, uh-huh.
W: How did you decide to become a photographer?
J: I think ... I think I got my inspiration from when I was in high school. I had a friend who lived in the neighborhood, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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he used ... I think he was in a chemistry class, he developed film in his bathroom, and I used to go over to his house and I would go in the darkroom, I couldn't see what he was doing, but he would ... when he'd get through I'd see this roll of film had been developed and ..... I think, evidently, it was that. Because when I went into the service I said, well, I'm going to have some paid educational time when I come out of service and I didn't know what I wanted to do, I had no dream I'd want to be an entrepreneur at one time. So I thought about taking photography. When I came out of the service, well, Houston Junior College, which eventually got to be TSU now, they called it Houston ... Houston College for Negroes at that time ... Junior College for Negroes ... that's what it was ... Junior ...
W: '40s?
J: Yeah, '46. And it was located over in the Yates High School Building, in the evenings from 3 to 9, and that's when we'd go to school at 3 o'clock in the evening, after the high school time. So we had a photographer, I guess you've heard about Teal, no, ... that's right, Teal, A.C. Teal was a famous black photographer here in Houston that took all the schools, school work and stuff, all over Texas. And he had opened up a school in conjuction with the junior college. And so I started under his school in the Houston Junior College, and that lasted for about a year. In '47 they had built a TSU school. So he was Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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either going to have to teach at TSU, because they weren't going to accept him under the conditions they had then, his school, he was independent and we'd go to his school and then go over to TSU for literary classes. So, he didn't want to do that, so they started school and didn't have any teachers for our ... well, they used some teachers that were regular photographers, you know. And I can remember they got about 8 .... 8 of the top students out of our class, to go to the University of Houston, to train to be teachers. You know, they gave us extensive courses and they started with the skills essential to photography. And we would go to school over there from 9 o'clock until about 9:30, I mean, about 10, 10:30, something like that.
W: At night?
J: At night, yes. Leave TSU and go over there. So, that lasted until ... (name - inaudible) ... tried to get into Texas University, and go to law school. So they decided to make a law school at TSU. And call it Texas University ... call it ... they made a state school out of it. See, the University of Houston was administrator of TSU when they ... in fact, they were the administrator of Houston College the whole time they were operating. And that took them out of the administration of the University of Houston, so that knocked out my little class. So, I guess we struggled on with the little ........ teachers we had - until I graduated. That was the end of that.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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W: And then you became a professional photographer?
J: Yeah.
W: Or you started working ....
J: Well, I started ... me and a friend of mine, we were in the same class together. In fact, he left our school and went up to New Haven, went to a photographer's school up in New Haven. And he got a little bit more extensive training than I did, which was Provost, I guess you heard about Provost? So me and Provost, we started ... there was nothing ... no kind of agreement ... we just started a business together. And this was in 1950. And I struggled along with that.
Sometime I'd quit and go somewhere and get a job. I got a job one time in a place. First time I really experienced working under some extreme prejudice condition. (laughter)
W: Where was it?
J: It was a place called Texas Equipment Company. What they done was build, repair, tractors and heavy equipment, you know. Draglines and stuff like that. And I applied for a job as a mechanic helper, when I went to school I took automoble mechanics, after I passed photographers. And I applied for a job as a mechanic helper, and so this agency sent me over there. When I got over there they gave me a broom and told me to keep the floor clean, and (laughter) .... photographer ... I mean, a mechanic ... do you want to hold .... let me .... he didn't know ... no, let me hold it ... you know, some kind Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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of deal like that. Then they wanted me to clean ... had taken in a tractor or something on a trade-in, well, I would clean it up, clean all of the grease and oil and stuff off of it with a steam-cleaning gun and when they'd get it repaired then I would take it and paint it ... spray-gun. When I wasn't doing that, then I would clean up the place. And then one of the mechanics told me one day, says, "Benny, ..." ... we had about 3 mechanics, and the one they called 'Baldy,' one they called 'Shorty,' and one they called ... I remember he had a nickname ... they used ... none of them their names ....
W: These are all black men?
J: No, these were the mechanics, the white ...
W: Okay.
J: Shorty came up to me one day, he says, "Benny, I want you to call Mr. Baldy, Mr. Baldy." ... I can't remember what the other guy was named ... there were 3 of them ... "And I want you to call him Mr. So and So and ... " I said, "Well, why should I?" You know, just like that. And he said, ... I said, "I'm a man just like they are. I don't see why I have to Mister them." you know. (laughter) It went on like that ... I had the whole .... in that shop. In fact, I wasn't ... intended to work that long. I just wanted to work long enough to get a few paydays, you know, to pay my car note. See, because I was trying to make it in photography and it wasn't paying off, so, ... He got after me one day about drinking out of the Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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fountain. He had a fountain in the shop. They had another black fellow working there, he'd keep him a cup hanging up on the wall, and he'd take his cup and draw his water and drink and he wanted me to ... this same guy, Shorty, wanted me to get a cup and do the same thing. So I told him, "Well, it's not sanitary to have a cup hanging up out here in this dust and stuff. When I sweep the shop ..." I said, "If you want me to drink out of that fountain ... if you don't want me to drink out of that fountain ... tell the boss-man to put some papercups ... " they had a dispenser up there, but they never had no cups in it, you know. I .... "... tell him to put some cups in that dispenser and I'll use it. I know I'm not going to hang no cup out here in this dusty place though." "Well, you should drink out of ... you should drink out of the fountain one more time, I'll kick your ass." That's what he told me. I said, "Well, you've got one too. We'll just kick each other's." (laughter) And that went on, you know, went on and on for ..... that stuff. So we got .... Jack would always make the coffee for coffee-break, and one day Jack wasn't there and they asked me to make it. So I made the coffee, set the cups ... they had a little ole table ... like a hospital table ... they keep the cups on the bottom, you know, when you're not using them, then you could wash them and put them at the bottom, then put them on the top for the coffee break. So everybody came by and get their cup and pour their coffee. So I came Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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by and got me a cup and poured me some coffee, and the foreman
walked over to me and says, "I want you to ... get you a special
cup and kept it down at the bottom of the cabinet to use, you
know." I said, "What's wrong with these? I'll have to wash
them, why can't I wash mine like I have to wash yours?" you
know. And that, you know, that kind of thing. They just don't
want you ... I told them I wasn't no coffee drinker, I didn't
have to drink no coffee, it wasn't my job to make it. I didn't
make it no more. If Jack wasn't there, they made their own
coffee, see. That's the kind of attitude I had on that job,
so like I said, I wasn't ... didn't intend to work there too
long. But I worked there about 3 or 4 months until the foreman
one day asked me to go on his place and help him plant some
postholes. He was putting up a fence and wanted me to dig some
postholes to help him, you know. And I said was I going to
get ... on Saturday's we'd get time and a half and I asked him
whether he was going to pay me time and a half, he said, no,
I'm going to pay you straight time. I think I was making $.50
an hour at that time. And now, people in the office, if they
had some little yards, I'd go cut their grass on Saturday
evening, when I'd come out, take my card, punch it when I come
in, well, that's time on the company. Well, he couldn't do
that, see. So, the next morning ... the next week-end he fired
me, told me he couldn't use me no more. Well, I expected that;
it didn't surprise me. But those are kinds of feelings I've
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had. I mean, it kept me frustrated all the time. I was almost
as glad to get away from there as I was working there. But
by that time I had gotten caught up with my little deals and
I didn't have that much expense, because I still lived with
my mother, you know. Then ... you'd be surprised how
photography just gradually picked up, picked up. So I got
married in '53 and I said, well, I'd better find me another
job and be secured, but I can't depend on the photography, you
know, to take care of the family. So I started working at the
VA hospital, and doing a little photography on the side. So,
me and Provost didn't get along too well, so I separated from
him, put me in a little dark-room at home. And then I got too
much business to ... I was working from 12 to 8 at the VA hospital,
and I'd be at home all day long, you know, in the daytime from
8 until time to go back to work. I'd sleep until noon, when
I'd get a chance ... 2 or 3 hours, that's all I needed anyhow.
And then I decided I would open up a studio. I needed to get
in the eye of the public. I'm getting too much business here.
So I did and I almost killed myself, you know, with that kind
of arrangement I had - working from 12 to 8 and try to run that
studio from 8 to 6 in the evening then go home and sleep until
11 and go back to work at 12. (laughter) And I did that for
a while, until ... then I started getting jobs at night. We
had a lot of social clubs here in Houston. They would have
dances all through the week. And I'd be taking pictures for
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those dances and things at the El Dorado. That was one of our
ballrooms here. And that would last until it was time for me
to go back to work. See, I wouldn't get a chance to sleep,
wouldn't even go to bed, didn't even pull off my shoes, I'd
come on home to the studio and at night I'd go on some job and
that'd keep me going until 11 o'clock or 12 o'clock when I'd
have to go to the VA. Well, it just so happened I was working
on the psychiatric department and if I could catch a quiet night
and a good companion, you know, I could get me a couple of hours
of sleep or something. That's all I would need. I .... , you
know, just enough time to close my eyes and wake up. I managed
that until ... actually, .... I worked with a white boy one
night. I said, "Now ..." I told him, I said, "I had one of
those days, I ain't had no sleep since I left here." (laughter)
And I said, "I'm going back in this chair and if a supervisor
comes, you drop them keys." Because they had to open two doors
to get in. And I said, "You be sure you drop them keys and
wake me up. And be sure I'm woken before you let her in."
Shoot, when I looked up she was shining a flashlight in my eyes,
I was just gone. (laughter) So they put me on days and that's
when I resigned because I couldn't work days and still do
photography, you know.
W: But by then your business had picked up enough to ...?
J: Yeah, I was making enough money to operate, to pay the
business off, but I wasn't making enough money to take care
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of the family. So, I worked ... that happened in July and about December I was about 6 months behind in my bills, the little bills I had. My wife had started working at one time and she gets pregnant and then I got all them bills ... she didn't open up because she thought she was going to be able to pay them and all those kinds of things, you know. So, I got my little ... my retirement payment after 6 months and I caught up on all my bills. In about 6 months I was behind again. Then ... that's when my business started going, then I got automobiles paid up, then I made a little money from then on. That was in '59 - '60. Yeah, I left there in '59, that's when it was. I opened the studio in '58, I had been working there since '53, about 6 years. In '59 ... I just couldn't take it ... I'd almost killed myself ... I'd be driving around with my eyes ... falling asleep ... people blowing their horn waking me up ... I'd get at a red-light and ... (laughter) it was pitiful. So I said, I can't take this ... I'm going to kill myself. So, I was going home one night and ran off in the ditch and don't know ... I didn't know where I wanted to turn, it looked like I just wanted to turn in a driveway. I don't know what reason I ran off the edge of it and run into the ditch. And things started happened that ... like I .... going to work one night, the same route I travelled every day, then I got on the corner and I couldn't recognize nothing. You know, I was just dead for sleep, I don't know what it was. I said, "Now ..." Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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I didn't know whether to turn right, turn left, then when I
found myself, I was going back home. (laughter)
W: To bed probably.
J: I don't know, I guess so. You know, they were giving me
trouble about coming in late anyhow, "Boy," I said, "I'm going
to catch it tonight." Late again, late again. But I finally
got over that hump and I was at a good location, I was right
over there across from TSU. In fact, where I was, is their
campus now. And I just had a tremendous business, especially
with those students. Everytime they'd change semesters ....,
they'd need proof ... students come over there, they'd want
to send pictures home, .... mothers and things.
W: So you always were free-lance? You never were associated
with a newspaper or ...?
J: No, I run my own studio. I had my own studio. I
specialized in portraits. But I'd done some of everything,
you know. All this stuff here, like, well, people just got
... like the NACP and I got affiliated with ... got connected
with a lot of organizations. They were .... But I never ....
well, it wasn't no free-lancing, when I .... in fact, when I
packed my cameras away I was going to get paid, you know.
(laughter) Somebody was going to pay me, somebody hired me,
because I just didn't go out there and shoot pictures for
nothing. I mean, speculating! No, I'd never do that.
W: Did you work for whites? Ever?
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J: Who?
W: For white people? I mean ....
J: Oh, yeah. I had a few jobs. I remember one time a guy came to me, he wanted a ..., he'd invented a paint machine, not a machine, but a ... I guess you'd call it that ... you know, it was a gadget where he sat a bucket of ... a gallon of paint on a heating unit and heat this paint up and he would spray it while it was hot. So he wanted some pictures of that to run for advertisements. ....... not there now, but they opened up .... this and that. And they've done everything to ........ they'll clean it, they'll paint it, they'll wash it and wax it, you know, all these different procedures, so I took pictures of every little procedure they had. That was the biggest job I ever had in a white company. ..... I really didn't have no facilities, that was before I opened my studio, because I had to wash all those pictures in my bathtub. (laughter) And so, and some of them I couldn't, you know, like, I would go ... we'd have a home show or something and they ... United Gas Company would give a stove away for ... to a certain winner, .... winner. Well, they'd want a picture of that, you know, a picture of this stove ... or whatever they gave away ... So I went up ... which is Intex Gas Company now, they were the United then, so I went up to the office one day to deliver the pictures and he just had a big old table just full of pictures, I said, "You're getting a lot of pictures made ..." He said, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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"Yeah." I said, "Do you do them yourself or do you use independent photographers?" He said, "Well, we do both." I said, "Well," I gave him my card, I said, "Why don't you give me ... call me sometime and let me make some of this money." (laughter) 'Cause I'd never really done no commercial work for white people .... I was getting peanuts for my little, you know, little jobs that I was going on, compared to what they get. And ... but I never heard from him. I had an advertising agency one time, he got me to do a job for a guy made ... it was always somebody who was struggling ... who invented something and they needed some cheap pictures, I guess. He'd invented some kind of cabinet where you could step up and reach the cabinet and just pull it down, instead of standing up on a stool or something to reach up there to get it. It was a neat thing, but I never ... it never did ... I never seen any of them, you know. Plus the fact he had to take me out to Pasadena, Texas. (laughter) You heard about Pasadena?
W: Uh-huh.
J: And ... to do this job and they had a white model and all this stuff and I really was scared because there weren't no black people in Pasadena at that time. I think there's a few up there now, but at that time ... no black people ... they even ... (inaudible) ... We went in a home, some new apartment or building or something, to take these pictures. But that came out alright. That's the last job I done for ... that he had Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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me ... I think he had me do one or two jobs. Because he had connections, you know, with ... advertising agency, .... pictures.
W: Tell me about the civil rights movement in Houston. I mean, you knew everybody; you were working for the NAACP ...
J: Yeah.
W: ... and all the social groups and what were those ..... like?
J: Well, it took me by suprise one time, I think ... these kids met up at the YMCA ... it was right down the street from TSU ... about two blocks. And they had meetings over there in the gym and well, in fact, they had started all over the country. And so one day they went ... I think the Union Station was the first place ... the pictures I made then were the first place they ... they tried to integrate.
W: Is this the Progressive Youth Association? That you ...
J: Yeah, uh-huh. Um-huh.
W: ... that you ....? Okay.
J: Uh-huh. And I think they had a march from TSU down to this Union Station. I don't think they had a parade, .... you had to go down there and stop it every night ... change ... keep doing, and I think some of them got arrested. I really don't remember all the details. I'm sure some of them ... they had some lawyers .... probably got them out of jail with a bond or something. Then the next time they integrated ... we used Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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to have a Winegarden store on Alemeda, which was ... in '61 ... evidently ... Winegarden's was still serving white people at the time; they didn't serve blacks. This must have been the '40 era, really, .... black, you know ... the Winegarden is across .... on Alemeda ...
W: Is this still 3rd Ward, part of 3rd Ward? I mean, I know it was just ....
J: I don't know, I wouldn't think so. ... (inaudible) ... is the name ... is called .... whatever it was named after, you know, this is Riverside Terrace over here, that was Riverside. 3rd Ward stopped at Alabama.
W: Okay.
J: ..... I used to live on it when I was a kid, raised up down there. We were on the borderline of ... we had ... between this block ... they had nothing in between this block between Riverside and the 3rd Ward. Then ........ is the next street and then the white folks live on ......... But .... when I was a kid, we used to play football on our side ... you know I told you there was a block between us with nothing on it ... and half of that block ... we'd play football over here and every now and then a white group would play on their side, you know. So I told a fellow, I said, "Let's ask them white boys if they want to play us a football game." (laughter) So we did and boy, we got it on. So we had a big game going. Boy, the mommas came out ... the white mommas came out their kitchens Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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and stopped that game ... said we couldn't play together. Sure did. And I thought it was awful, you know.
W: How old were you?
J: I imagine I was about 10. 11, 10, 12, something like that.
W: So it didn't occur to you that that was a bad thing to do or that would be a problem?
J: Well, I knew it wasn't ... they didn't allow us to play together, you know; we just wanted to see what would happen. We didn't think the mommas was going to come out of ... out of the house, you know, and stop the game. (laughter) They sure did. They called ... they called their kids home.
W: Did you have a sense that history was happening?
J: No.
W: I mean, you have the photos of the Union Station thing, did you just hear about that and go down? Or did they hire you to come down and take photographs?
J: I'm sure they did. Mr. Meese, the guy who operated the YMCA. I never knew definitely, but I think he was the one that instigated these kids to start the sit-ins. And he probably called me to go down there and take some pictures, you know. Because I did a lot of pictures for the Y and ... but I didn't ... I didn't ... nobody didn't send me to this Winegarden sit-in. They had one down there. And I just didn't ... like I said, I never had ... I never voluntarily go nowhere ... take no Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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pictures unless I was hired. But just to create history, ... well, if it wasn't a buck in it for me, I didn't bother about it. (laughter) You know, my main interest was making a dollar. And I remember ... if I should go down there and take some pictures of this, because this would be history. But I said ... uh-uh, there ain't no money in it. So I didn't bother about it.
W: Were you a member of the NAACP or ?
J: Yeah.
W: Were you involved in some of the things that were going on? Personally? Not as a ....
J: No, no, uh-uh. Unless it was, you know, the only time I get involved was when they hired me. But I just had a membership, just to help support it. (phone rings)
W: We were just talking about your involvment with the civil rights movement.
J: Yeah, uh-huh.
W: Did you ... was there some sort of atmosphere of excitement ... were people ... were blacks really moving towards change, or planning, or aware of what was happening? I mean, was there some organized effort that everybody got behind to make some changes here in Houston?
J: Yeah, that Progressive Youth Association. In fact, there was a lot of people behind that. We had a group of black folks that were influential in the city, and they were backing this. Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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Because when they first ... after this thing went on for so long ...
W: You mean the efforts to integrate the ...
J: Yeah, integrate, uh-huh.
W: ... ..... Accommodations company, uh-huh.
J: Then the Restuarant Association ... and this group of black people, I don't know if they had a name or whether it was an organization behind it or what, I can't remember. But it was ... I know the Business and Professional Men's Club, it was a black group and most of these people belonged to that, now whether they was behind it or not, I don't know. I belong to that too. But anyway, they got together with the Restuarant Association and they ... instead of having them all protest because they were going to go downtown and protest at the theaters, and some of the other restuarants downtown, so they made an agreement that all of the restuarants would be desegregated. That was voluntarily done, to all of them. So, that's progress, I could stand for that. Until the Supreme Court came out with, you know, that ....... in '62 ...
W: '64.
J: No, no, I'm talking about the Accommodations ... Accommodations ... I think that came out in '53, I believe. We were against all segregation of public ... public .... So, well, it just helped put pressure on the system. And they ... like you say ... you asked me whether they ... could I see any Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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force ... well, that was one of them ...
(loud noise)
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
W: Was there a groundswell of support for efforts toward civil rights or were most people ambivalent about it?
J: I don't know. When you say 'support' what do you mean? Were they going out and voluntarily ...?
W: Were there people who were ready and willing to lend active support? I mean, either, you know, go on a picket line if it needed it, send money if you needed it, was there some sort of unified effort going on? Or was it just certain groups doing that?
J: It didn't last as long here as it did in Alabama or Mississippi or some of those places, you know, they had to struggle for a long ... they had a bunch of marches. We didn't have too much of that.
W: How come, do you think? Why was the civil rights movement in Houston different than Mississippi or Alabama?
J: I think when we really started ... I think the civil rights were well on the way, you know, in other parts of the country. And with all the TV ... I don't know how long ... how long demonstrations lasted around here. It was a few demonstrations. I remember they demonstrated in theaters downtown one time. When they put all these students in jail Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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one time, they had a bunch of them in jail, I don't know where they got them from.
W: Why do you think the movement was later ... happened later here than in other parts of the country?
J: Well, I guess people ... the pressure wasn't as bad here in Houston, I don't think like it was everywhere else. You know, like, we could vote, we could run for office. It was a little bad, because I remember once, we had a lawyer ... a lawyer to go down to the county courthouse for a trial one time. The judge talked to him like he had a tail. They had one try to integrate the county ... the cafeteria ... and I think he had to fight somebody. And during this time I was telling you they put all these kids in jail ... they had a police ... a police ... they had a cafeteria in the police station ... city police station ... and they wouldn't let the blacks ... public ... go to the cafeteria because they said it was for the police. Well, they'd never had too many blacks on the police force at the time, so .... personnel .... police officers ... police department ... so during this time I was down there waiting for these guys to get out of jail they had a ... some kind of carnival over in the parking lot of the police station over there ... all these people were coming and going to the cafeteria ... going into the cafeteria, getting food and eating. Just public people now, but they were all white. So I said, well, this thing is supposed to be for personnel only, you know, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
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(laughter) I threw the door open and flashed my camera in there and took a picture. (laughter) I don't even know where that picture is ... I've got that picture here. And so the man who owned the cafeteria he got excited and came out there ... "Who took that picture? Who took that picture?" I didn't say nothing. I laid my camera down ... I put the camera where he couldn't see it. I was using a big old 4 by 5, you know, those big old 4 by 5 cameras. But he really got excited over that, because I guess he knew what controversy would ... And when I did that ... boy, he went in there and he fixed steakburgers for all them kids ... he came out with a tray with ... they were good too. Tray ... not hamburgers, steakburgers. And they all feasted on that. They were really nice, they were really good. Good hamburgers too.
W: For the black kids?
J: Yeah. The moment they got out of jail, he served them all these steak sandwiches.
W: He didn't want any trouble?
J: I imagine so. That's the only thing I can figure out. W: Was there a problem with police brutality here?
J: Oh, my goodness, yes. I was involved with one one time. In fact, they treated me rough on two or three occasions. I went to the police station one time to ... oh, what I was going to do ... well, I got into a problem with a ... on a ... his sister told me to go down there to take some pictures of Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
23
him ... he was having a birthday party and she lived next door. So I went to take some pictures, so I asked him about getting paid, so he said, "I didn't hire you." I said, "Well, who is Miss So and So?" "That's my sister, she lives next door." So I went back there and told her ... said, "Your brother is not going to pay for these pictures, so I came up here to collect my money." She said, "You go back there and tell him I said for him to pay you." So I went back over there and, boy, he was about half drunk, I guess, and he got angry and he told me, "Get out of this place. Don't come in here telling me ..." I said, "..... pay ..." " ... get out of here ... bother me." And I think I went back to her and told her and she sent me back to him. Well, by that time he was furious, just like the policemen do you, he grabbed me by the shirt, tore my shirt off me ...
W: Was this a black guy?
J: Yeah. And I ran out of the place. And when I ran out the place, I ran over his mother, his mother was in the doorway, I didn't look for nobody ... go around nobody ... I just ran ... and she was standing ... I knocked her down ... I heard him saying, "You knocked my mother down." I ran out to my car. When I jumped in my car and got it started he was looking for some bricks to throw at me, you know, in the drive ... parking lot and that's the worst incidence I ever had, you know, with a customer. So I went down to the police station, said I'm Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
24
going to file charges on this guy. So I went down there and got on the elevator, .... "Boy, remove your hat. Remove your hat. Don't get on this elevator with a hat on." So I just took my hat off. So I went up there to file a complaint. And they make you feel like you shouldn't be up there worrying them anyhow about a little complaint like that. So they took my complaint and this guy was supposed to be one of those ... everybody knew him because he was supposed to be a deputy or somebody ...
W: Oh, he was a cop?
J: Well, one of them 'dollar a year men' they call them, just a deputy. If they need them I guess they can ..... I don't know what it was all about ... so they call them 'dollar a year man' ... they get paid a dollar so they're given the right to be on the force, I guess. (laughter) So he was probably well-known down there, I didn't hear no more of that. So ... in fact, when I say deputy, he was in the sheriff's department, because this was the city police department. Anyway, the next incident I got ... I was at ... I went to Earl Grant ... you heard about him? ... a singer ... a famous singer at that time, I think he's dead now. He had a concert out at a place out on North Main. I think it was a Mexican joint ... but that's where the dance was and when we came ... when the dance turned out somebody had got shot in the parking lot so I asked the officer ... said, "Well, can I go out here and make a news shot for ..." At that time I had ... I was a stringer for Ebony Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
25
Magazine ... and he said, "I said, move on, move on." He didn't even answer my question. He didn't even look at my presscard. So they had a sargeant standing upside of the building (laughter) I asked the sargeant, I said, "Sargeant, I want to know if I can get permission to make a news shot out here?" "You have to ask that policeman there. He's in charge." Went back to him, I said, "The sargeant told me to ask you." "I told you to move on, boy, move on." That's all I got out of him. By that time some detective came out of there, and everybody was .... Captain So and So ... Captain So and So ... so I asked him about it ... he said, "Well, you have to ask the people in charge." So I went up there and I said, "Officer, I'm still trying to get permission. .... if I get permission and you keep running me away." "I said move on. I'm going to have you arrested." He grabbed me, told somebody to put me in his car. I said, "I have some friends with me that might ..." and they were riding with me so I had to ... I think they snuck me off so fast I didn't get a chance because he wasn't around, I didn't get a chance to give him the key to my car, so he had to hustle a ride home some other way, I don't know how he got home. So after I sat in his car for about half an hour, he had somebody take me to the police station. I had to post my bond ...
W: What did they charge you with?
J: What did they charge me with? Failed to move on. That's Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
26
what it was ... failed to move on. So they put me in the jail, put me in jail, that's what it was. I stayed down there about an hour. Then they called me back. Told me I had a $10 bond to pay. So I paid my $10 bond, they had all my money anyhow. They had everything I owned ... my pockets, you know. So they let me out. You know, on my one phone call I called my buddy, he was at home then, I said, "Look," I said, "can you come down here and get me?" I said, "I'm going to have to call you back when they let me out." I said, "They're fixing to lock me up now." He said okay. So when I got out I called him, he came and got me. Then I had to go to my car ... anyway ... so the HOUSTON PRESS was the newspaper ... was the evening paper here at that time, and they picked up the news, they ran a story in the paper, ....
W: About you being arrested?
J: Yeah. Well, no, no. That's when I went to the city council to complain about it. I called it unnecessary arrest, you know. And that's when the Press got a hold to it.
W: What happened?
J: Um?
W: What happened?
J: Nothing. They'd take it under advisement. That's all they'd tell you. They'd take it under advisement. But they won't investigate anything like that unless .... follow ..., I guess. So when the trial date come, I went down there and Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
27
the policeman didn't show up. He just ... a lot of ... they were harass ... most of it ... a lot of it was harassment. And I got my bond money back. But it creates a problem on you ... your time and everything else involved with that ... going to the police station. Anyway, in about ... I think it was about a month or two later, the Press called me and asked me had I got any results from my hearing. I said, "No, I ain't heard nothing." Then they wrote another little piece in the paper about police brutality. Because I asked one of them, I said, "What ... (inaudible) ..." (laughter) He told me something, I don't know what he told me. (laughter) He said, "They'd got some bad publicity, I know that." That's what he told me. But anyway, now that was during the time ... yeah, we had some ... we got some ... we ...... Then we got a new mayor, Hoffheinz. You heard about Hoffheinz?, he's the one that put up the dome stadium, Judge Hoffheinz. Was our police chief at that time, and I had a presscard from him, police reporter, they wouldn't even honor that. I went somewhere ... they don't even look at your credentials ... you know ... try to show them your credentials is just like ... I don't know ... they just don't honor nothing from a black guy. I took some pictures of a customer of mine; this lady called me, a policeman had beat up her husband ... right before Christmas, Christmas eve night. He was a truck driver ... and they claim he was ... he was peddling dope, I don't know ... one of these Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
28
long distance truck drivers, drives these 18 wheelers, and she
said they were waiting on him to come home that night. They
came to her house, sit down there, cut her Christmas cake, her
a black .... white person, a policeman and a white ......, they
were together. And ate up her fruit, .... they got a call to
go to 4th Ward, to participate in some kind of affair they had
over there, so I think the black policeman went over there and
he came back and he started talking about ... the one is just
as bad as the other, talking about how ... how they had to subdue
some nigger over there and so and so ... talk with the white
guy ...
W: That was her husband?
J: No, this was his partner, the white policeman ...
W: No, the man that had to be subdued.
J: Oh, no, that's where he went ... to 4th Ward, which is
a black neighborhood across town, I mean, he was way over there,
I mean, that was a long way from where he was. Then the husband
came home and they went out there with a tire jack or something,
and he didn't get out of the truck, and the pulled him out of
the car and started beating on him. And so he ran into the
house and got up under the bed. They still got him and beat
him up. And she said, "I know my husband ... my husband don't
do no dope or nothing like that, so and so ..." So she had
me go take some pictures of him, the room how it was tore up,
that room was just tore up, you know, and all those bruises
Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
29
on his head. And they called me to court one time. All they wanted me there for was to prove that I took the pictures. That I wasn't ... don't seem like them pictures mean anything ... 'cause I sit there and listened at the trial for a while and their lawyer, I don't know whether he was trying to ... I guess he ... I don't know what ... the pictures ... I guess they showed the pictures of what the policeman had done to the man ... but after that it didn't seem to bear any evidence on the complaint. Just whatever he was charged with ... now they might have had some legitimate reason, I don't know, I'm not sure. The wife, the way she talked, she said, ".... He just didn't do nothing like this." I don't know of any other incident. I can't think of any right now.
W: I was telling you that I was trying to understand how the civil rights movement has affected our lives today. And housing is one thing that I'm interested in. Was there a change in where people lived after the civil rights movement here in Houston?
J: Yeah. After the ... what law was that? ... you know, they passed a pack of them ... a law where the real estate people couldn't refuse to sell you ...
W: Uh-huh.
J: ... whatever they called that now ... yeah, people started moving over here in Riverside.
W: The blacks?Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
30
J: Across the bayou, yeah, and the first ... moved over there was named Cecil. And Cecil said that when they were moving in, they moved in at night. And the people in the neighborhood ... the people in the neighborhood thought he was probably was a hired hand (laughter) helping ... helping, you know, somebody ... I don't know. I guess the people didn't realize the people had sold their home ... so after they got situated they found out a black family had moved in, they bombed his house.
W: What was his last name?
J: I think his last name was Cecil.
W: Oh, his last name was Cecil.
J: What was his first name? Jack, I think Jack Cecil, I'm not sure.
W: And when was this?
J: I don't know. This had to be somewhere around the '50s ... 4 ... between '54 ... no, not that early. I'm trying to think where I was living at that time. I'm not sure the year; I don't even know where I was living then. Between '54 and '61 I stayed at Sunnyside. It had to be somewhere in that area because I moved out here in '61. So it had to be in the '50s.
W: Did it make the newspapers? I mean, was it well-known?
J: Oh, yeah.
W: Well-known?
J: Oh, yeah, everybody knew about that. It made headlines And they finally got it resolved. They didn't move.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
31
W: What happened? Did they catch the people who had done it?
J: Oh, yeah. They knew who done it. I think that ... well, what had happened ... they'd hired somebody ... some tramp or somebody. To set the bomb off. They charged him with something and he served a little time or something like that. But the people who were behind it stayed clear .... They didn't get affected at all. (laughter)
W: Was that an isolated case or did that happen regularly? Intimidating blacks who are trying to move into white neighborhoods.
J: You said isolated, what do you mean my that?
W: I mean, did that only happen once or did it happen other times in other neighborhoods?
J: It happened ... somebody ... the second ... the second person that tried it ... moved in here ... they got intimidated too. Can't remember who they were. And then when ... after the blacks started being able to move where they wanted and they started infiltrating these white neighborhoods, then the white flight started. White folks ... just like out here ... all these people just moved out. When I moved over here, we still had white neighbors, had white neighbors back here, they gave me a "welcome to the neighborhood" party, you know. Surprised me. Had a white neighbor across the street. There was two of them, this house and that fellow over there, was Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
32
white. And they were all up and down this street, they were ... a lot of them were still in here. Have you seen that movie about ... I got a tape of it on .... 'This Is My House' ... 'I'm Not Going To Move' ... or something like that. For this neighborhood they had put out a tape ... it came out on the public television channel, that's where I got it from, I copied off of that.
W: When did they do that?
J: That was after I moved here. Because a guy came by and interviewed me.
W: And you have a copy of it?
J: Yeah.
W: Oh, I'd love to see it.
J: Yeah. It's about 2 hours long.
W: Uh-huh.
J: Yeah, that'd be nice for you to see.
W: When did you move to this neighborhood?
J: In '68.
W: And that's when this tape was made ...?
J: Somewhere in between ...
W: .....
J: Yeah, somewhere around '68. Yeah, I imagine in '68 because I moved here in March and so ...
W: Did that happen all over the city that, I guess ..., you're middle-class or upwardly mobile ... did a lot of middle-class Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
33
blacks move out of the formerly all black neighborhoods and into white ones?
J: Yeah. That happened all over. What I gather ... they, you know, when they built this neighborhood this was all Jews ... Jews out here. And they wouldn't let the Jews move into places like Riveroaks, so they're going to build their own Riveroaks. They have some pretty nice houses in this area. That's how this started. What this started all about. When I was a little boy we used to come through here, we'd be scared, you know. They'd catch you ... you didn't walk these neighborhoods at night, you know. But we used to come here ..... we used to come here and go swimming when I was a boy about 8 or 9 years old. And it was a lot of shrubbery, a lot of trees ... they didn't have the cemented .... like they've got it now ... a bunch of trees and we used to go in our birthday suit (laughter). Go swimming out there in that hole they called it; we had a certain place that was kind of deep and sometime the policeman would run you out ... run you away. And we'd just take that chance, you know. Because, you know, we didn't have nowhere to go swimming. Pitiful. We didn't realize that was sewer water and everything else. And I had went to the YMCA and learned how to swim, out at camp, we used to go every summer, and I just wanted to swim, just to swim some more, you know. Anyway, the ... they just started moving ... they just starting going ... just like this movie ... you'd swear there Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
34
were still going to be white people out here ... they're moving back now ... they're coming back.
W: That's interesting. Why are they?
J: Well, it's convenient. Right in town. I guess they moved out in these suburb areas and the gas price ... the gas went up ... and that killed their pockets, you know.
W: The former owners or other people are moving into this neighborhood? Other ....
J: No, no, I don't think it's the former ... no, these people that were living here they probably built ... went out somewhere and this guy who I bought this house from he's in the oil business and I'm sure he bought him a mansion somewhere else or built one, you know. (laughter)
W: But white people are starting to move into this neighborhood now?
J: Yeah, uh-huh. We've got some Chinese right there on that corner. Just moved in about 3 months ago.
W: Do you think that's a good thing that, you know, after civil rights you could now legally move into a neighborhood like this?
J: Do I think it's a good thing?
W: Uh-huh.
J: I don't see anything wrong with it.
W: Was there any ... I don't know how to ask this ... was there any resentment from, like people in your old neighborhood, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
35
when you moved out?
J: Oh. No. I don't guess they knew where you were going, you know. (laughter) In fact, see, when I ... before I moved here I was right across the bayou there. In fact, I moved in the house ... the guy used to have a tailor's downtown, I used to buy my suits from ... Irvin Tailors. I bought the house that he was living in. When I moved over on Grantwood, which is Grantwood, right across from Southland , about 3 blocks from here. Well, he had a house over there with three apartments, ........, because I said, "Well, I could take this and ... the apartments in the back will pay for my note. And I'll be note-free." So ... and I rented the house that I moved out of and that paid for itself. Then what I didn't like ... my family ... my kid ... baby son ... and I didn't like them being in the area, because, you know, people ... these three apartments are right behind my house and you don't know the kind of characters can get back there sometimes. And there was a problem at that time, you know. I had a pimp back there one time, he brought a woman back there one time, and beat her up, and almost killed her. I thought he was going to kill the woman. And this kind of environment, so I said I was going find somewhere to go, so that gave me a down payment on another home. So I came over here. My wife came over here one day, said, "I want to show you a house over here." And that's how I got from over there. Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
36
W: Did ....
J: But they couldn't resent me because blacks had already migrated to that place then. They had already surrounded them ...... when I came over here there were still a lot of white people. Because there wasn't too many across the bayous, see? And I looked at some places further down, but those were too much for my pocketbook, you know. Some beautiful places. But people put signs out saying ... "This is my home, we're not going to sell." The real estate people were really the ones they were mad at, because they were the ones making a killing. And forcing these people to sell their homes, telling them lies ... the last one to move in and you all better ....
W: And probably everybody is going to move out.
J: Yeah. And you'd better sell when you can, and this, that, and the other. This house stayed empty about ... I had a friend, a customer who was a real estate agent and she said this house ... I tried to sell this house back in ... back in '60 ... I .... '68 ... she said it was around in '60, the last part of '67, this house stayed empty ever since. And it was .... they had vandalized it, they had ... looked horrible in here, they had all these ... took the speakers out of the ... took the speakers out and all these things just pulled down ... they had them all hanging down and they tried to take the rug up in that room. They had an ice-maker and they took that out ... oh, just ... it was in bad shape, see, because we were Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
37
bickering about the price, he wanted to sell it to me for $45,000 when I first ... first it went on sale for $65,000, and I guess they'd dropped it down to $45,000 when I ... when they approached me with it. And they wanted to sell as-is. They didn't want to do nothing, they didn't even want to sell FHA. And I said FHA isn't going to approve this house like this, and you want $45,000. So I didn't go for that. So, the real estate lady said, "Well, make him an offer." I said I wouldn't give him $30,000 for it as-is. She said, "Well, I'll take it back to him, but I don't think he'll go for that." I said, "Well, that's about all ... " (laughter) So she came back and said, "Will you take $32,500 for it?" (laughter) So I jumped at that. I said, "Sure."
W: Did that ... was that a problem for very long? I mean, when you moved into this neighborhood and you weren't worried about getting bombed or ...?
J: No, I wasn't.
W: Because the blacks had already started coming in?
J: Yeah. Because they had already ... yeah, 'cause they was ... they had ... that part over there ... across the bayou called Riverside, they'd just about took all of Riverside out. And then they started filtrating across the bayou, now that's when they got over here. Well, they ........ they always had more sale signs in the yards, when I'd started seeking. And I'd almost given up, I wasn't even thinking about this house, and Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 1 of 2)
38
so ... in fact, I tried to buy that lot, see. That house and this house wasn't built. There was just 2 acres of land out there. So I called ... the man who owned this house owned that 2 acres. So I saw a sign up there one day and I called him and asked him, says, "What was the price of those acres ... that land out there." He said he wanted $56,000 for it. But he wasn't going to sell part of it, he wanted to sell the whole 2 acres. And I said I can't handle no $56,000, you know. So I forgot about it. So my wife saw this house ... we came over here and looked at it ..... finally .... he was the same man owned that house ... owned that property over there. Because he had ... he was using a little bit more ......
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 1
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Civil Rights Series [Tape 2 of 2]
INTERVIEW WITH: Benny Joseph, Photographer
DATE: 16 December 1993
PLACE: Houston, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe
W: ...with my conversation with Benny Joseph on December 16, 1993. So it's not...I guess it would be fair to say that the Civil Rights movement in terms of housing was really a good thing, because it allowed you to come into a another...to a little better neighborhood, get a better house than...?
J: Yeah.
W: ...than you would have been able to do otherwise?
J: Sure.
W: What about...you know, we started talking about businesses awhile ago. Tell me what happened to Black-owned businesses.
J: Well, I think when Blacks got a chance to go to the nicer places to eat...most of our places were more or less ...they weren't so fashionable. And then, I guess it was just like that old saying, you know: The White man's hamburgers was better than the Black one's; White man's ice is colder than the...[laughter] Black man's ice. So, well, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 2
actually it took the Black businesses. They couldn't survive competing with the...
W: Was that true for other kinds of businesses in addition to restaurants?
J: I'm sure it did. In fact, I had a...it hurt my little out-of-town business I had with the schools. When the Black high schools integrated to the White schools - in the little small towns quicker than they did in the big cities. And I lost all my little school business down there. I used to take the highway and go down to Wharton and Sweeney.
W: You'd take like graduating classes and that kind of portraits?
J: Yeah, uh-huh.
W: And that hurt your business because Black schools were integrated into White and then the White schools didn't hire you?
J: That's right. That's true.
W: They would hire White photographers?
J: Yeah. They wouldn't even consider you. You never could talk to the principal at all. You couldn't pass the secretary. She always had an excuse.
W: Like what?
J: Well, “He's not available,” or “We've got a contract with a photographer already, we're not changing.” This and J: that, You know, always...
W: What about business districts here in the city? There Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 3
must have been, like, just whole streets that were Black-owned? Like, maybe, off of Wheeler, Downing...
J: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. You take Downing Street was...well, people like you have interviewed me quite a few times and they always wanted some scene pictures and I'd say, “All these parades I take, I always get close-up stuff of a truck or a float or something, and I don't have any sections of town. And so that's the reason I don't have any of the old buildings.”
W: Did that...did that...those businesses pretty much go out...
J: Oh, yeah.
W: ...after the civil rights?
J: We had a drugstore on the east corner of Downing... [inaudible] on the next big intersections of McGowan - we had a drugstore down there. We had a big doctor's office a block from it, with a drugstore. We had a ice cream parlor ...[inaudible] across from Emancipation Park. And all through there was some type of businesses. They're just not there no more.
W: And was the...was the problem that Blacks took their business now to White...White-owned businesses? Or were there other things involved, do you think?
J: You'd have to talk to a Social...Social person for that. I don't know what...
W: You just know they went out of business.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 4
J: Yeah. They...it's evidently that...it's evidence that they...that, well, I guess it's like the theaters. They didn't survive, the Black theater,. when you can go downtown ...[inaudible] theaters. And I know that's one reason why they couldn't survive, you know. 'Cause then they were small. You had to...we even had a theater downtown called The Majestic Theater. It didn't last, right downtown. I can imagine - I'm just thinking about it now - the type of people that could...the amount of people they could hold didn't suffice for the income they needed. Because at one time you didn't need that kind of income. You know, like I used to go to the show for a nickel when I was a kid, you know. A dime at the most. And you can't survive now, you know, even 10, 20 years ago on a price like that. And then if you can get people paying a certain price you'll have to charge twice as much with the...with maybe what anybody else paying on account of the amount of people they can hold. See?
W: Uh-huh. Did you lose other kinds of businesses? Other than your school business? I mean did your Black clients now go to White photographers or White studios?
J: Uh, when I was out there for the portrait business I
J: didn't see that. I could feel it. I had quite a...the reason why I quit, I just got tired. You know, I just... school work, it just burns you out. That's the only way I could make money is doing, in a mass, school work. Then I Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 5
wasn't able to...I didn't make enough...in fact, I tried to do it by myself. I didn't have enough money. I wasn't getting enough money to hire a staff. I couldn't get paid. Take for instance now: I made most of my money in black and white pictures - there's a tremendous amount of profit in there. When the color came out, oh, I had to compete with the color people. Uh, I had considered at one time building a color lab, setting up a color lab, which I was ready to do until...then I had to move. In '68 I had to move off of TSU campus to another location I had bought. And what I said I'm...I got me a architect to draw me up some plans for this house I had bought. I never did put it into action because the school system came out and said, “We're going to have to bid on pictures.” They didn't start integrating and I run into problems. It looked like all the Black principals had a White secretary. [laughter] Really, that happened. And they were hiring White photographers. And so I used to tell them, I said, “Man, how come you've got a White secretary in here?” “Well,” they said, “We're going to have to integrate our staff.” This, that, and the other. And so I said, “Well, can't you direct some of the business, some of the
J: ideas to work with the Black photographer? Hey, we can't get into the White schools.” You know, but I don't know, that's the way it went. It's a funny thing.
W: Well, are you saying, then, that in your experience integration...it sounds like it pretty much put you out of Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 6
business.
J: Oh, yeah. Sure.
W: Because you lost all the school business as a result.
J: Uh-huh. Well, I got out of it because they said we're going bid on it. Well, bids wasn't nothing but a proposal. And in doing color work, it cost me as much for me to get a color package picture as with a color photographer, with what the White labs were selling them for. You know, for instance, if I could get a color package for about $2.75, and the school, they were telling me that these packages should sell for so-and-so. There's no bid. Then they wanted to know how much kick-back they were going to give to the school. Man, I said, this is outrageous. When I worked for the school ... I'd go in there and make a deal with the principal and the only thing he would get probably is a yearbook ... picture for the yearbook. I would furnish him a picture for the yearbook. But I'd take all the students' pictures for the graduation purposes. And if any activity pictures were made they would pay me for it. But I couldn't make no money after what they were talking about. I tried J: it one year. I shot an elementary school - which I didn't fool with an elementary school at one at one time; I was only dealing with graduates. And I said, “Well, I'm going to try and see how this pans out. And the proposal they had, they wanted you to shoot all the personnel free and all that stuff. I'd have lost my...I didn't lose no Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 7
money 'cause...[inaudible], you know. But I didn't make no money - what I considered making money, you know. I broke even. So I left that alone. And I said, well, I could make a living off the community. You know, I just ain't going nowhere. And at one point I thought I was really going up, you know. I was going to put up me a color lab - I'm talking about when just dealing with color pictures; you're talking...talking about...[inaudible] I'd have to invest about seventy or eighty thousand dollars, you know. And then - already tired – [laughter] that looked like a lot of debt for me to get into.
W: You had kids in school when the schools were integrated?
J: Uh-huh.
W: Tell me about that.
J: Uh, no, they wasn't in school.
W: They were already out?
J: No, they were just starting.
W: Oh.
J: Because I sent my - three of my kids - to White schools. One of them got her scholarship out of it.
W: Do you think integrating the schools was a good thing? Did your kids benefit from it?
J: Well, we...I think so. Then they had a good a reputation of putting out good students. And they had a... I don't know, but I found out, once they integrated - you Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 8
know what I found out? They took all the Black - best Black teachers and sent them to White schools. And they put all them little kids coming out of college, they put them in the Black schools. And they just couldn't teach them; they couldn't get along. I mean they had no discipline in these schools. I used to go back and I'd ask the principal, I said, “Principal, [inaudible]. I tried to take pictures over there one day, and boy, it was just a commotion all day long. Kids were out of classes. And so I said, “Milton, what...you can't control these kids over here?” He said... [inaudible]. He said, “These White teachers can't control them. They don't listen to them. And the kids don't... just...just disobedient.” He says, “It's pitiful.” So I experienced that in the school system. So...
W: What about the education that your kids got?
J: Oh, they got a good education, I think, 'cause I never had no problem with my children. They were eager to learn; they studied. And I think...[Bailey? Name of school?] had a J: reputation. It seemed like to me they had...seemed like they had a system of training the students to study and learn, you know, that the other schools didn't do.
W: Was it a predominately a White school or predominately a Black?
J: Yeah. Yeah, one of the best White schools in town. Of course it was in Bellaire, Texas, which is a little inter-city of itself over here ... but it was under a independent Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 9
school district.
W: Was there busing?
J: Um?
W: Were your kids bused into it or you lived in that?
J: No ... we drove them over to school every day. We pooled ... you know ... had to pool ... there were several students around here that were going and we'd pick them up and take them.
W: So you essentially bussed your kids into a ... like an all-White neighborhood?
J: Uh-huh. Yeah.
W: You know you were saying about taking pictures of different social clubs at night and ... I was curious about ... it seems like these days we still ... we live pretty segregated lives. I mean ... you know ... it seems like most of our clubs are either all Black or all White ... most of our friends are like that ... so it seems like civil rights hasn't changed that ... the civil rights movement.
J: Uh-huh. No.
W: Do you think that's true?
J: No. It hasn't.
W: Do you think that's good? Or bad? Or?
J: I don't think it's bad, because I think you're more comfortable with your type ... especially for social reasons. The onlyest thing, being with a segregated society is when we had the Jim Crow Laws. That was devastating ... Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 10
you know. They said ... you can't do this ... you can't that ... you can't use this fountain ... you can't use this bathroom. That's the onlyest thing I was against. Other than that, we could have stayed the same ... you know. But ... I mean ... not the same ... but I mean we could have those type of freedoms without integrating, you know.
W: Uh-huh. Do you think ... did you or people you knew, think about what it was going to mean to integrate? I mean did you have any kind of sense of the changes that would come in your life?
J: No, I don't believe so. I can't remember me having any ... how it was going to affect my life. I didn't think ... I just don't remember what we talked about. I'm sure we knew that if they integrate that we were going to lose business, like cafeterias and cafes and stuff like that, and beer joints and ...
W: So you think you were aware of that or Blacks were aware of ........?
J: I believe so.
W: And they were ...
J: I believe so.
W: And it was worth it, to give that up to gain integration?
J: Well, if you consider that something ... I don't know. I guess it is. The only thing about it it's just hard on the entrepreneurs ... you know ... in that type of business.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 11
W: What about the kinds of jobs that were open to Blacks? I mean ... when you were struggling to make it ... you know ... working in the VA Hospital and working in that equipment shop ... did the jobs start becoming more available?
J: Oh, yeah. You know, when I said forced segregation ... when I was working VA Hospital ... I remember in 1950 Truman made a statement, or law, that all government installations would be desegregated. When I was working at the hospital we used to take our patients to sports. And the day we go to the swimming pool, the Black patients couldn't go in the pool ... you know ... they just sit around and look. So I remember one day I told ... I knew this law was on ... I had a patient that ... he was rowdy ... you know ... nobody didn't mess with him ... so I said, Basil, when we go to pool today I want you to put on your bathing suit and jump in the pool. And so he said ... Alright. So he jumped in the pool. And the guy who was supervising the pool ... he said ... You all get him out of there ... get him out of there! I said ... No, you get him out if you want him out. (laughter) So ... oh, there was a big commotion about that. So we went to ... we got out, and the doctors forbid him to go in the pool ... for going to sports period ... you know. Going into the water and all that stuff. So one day, I said ... Basil, tell the nurse you want to go somewhere ... I don't know ... I made up to the PX or somewhere. And on our way there I called Mrs. Adair, which she was the headBenny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 12
of NAACP at the time, I said ... Mrs. Adair, I've got a patient over here I want to talk to you about ... I told her what had happened. And so she talked to him, she said ... Well, you can't make the complaint. ... said ... He can. I said ... Well, I'm going to let you talk to him. And he told her what happened. And by 2 days, boy, they had all kind of Black lawyers out there ... at the VA Hospital. And they were investigating all these things ... shoot ... they broke that up ... that thing.
W: So was the NAACP ... what kind of role did it play in your life? I mean ... it sounds like it was the place you could turn to for help. Is that ...?
J: Yeah, I would say that. Especially when you're being mistreated on something that's against the law.
W: Was there anyplace else to go? Or anybody else to call on?
J: Well, you had to have money if you wanted to file a civil suit against something ... you know. (laughter) And that's ... no, we didn't have that kind of money. Then it takes too long anyhow ... to file a civil suit ... it'll liable to be a year or 2 waiting on it ... you know ... it might not even ever come up ... by you being Black.
W: So you trusted the NAACP to do something?
J: Yeah .. [inaudible] .. do it. I guess you did trust them. If I'd know they were out there ... of course, when I first went to the VA they had segregated ... Blacks in the Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 13
back and the Whites in the front ... they was in the same ward. And they had jobs out there that ... we had guys with degrees ... college degrees ... doing nursing service ... like. And you'd be surprised how they would have employees ... didn't believe that they could advance themselves. I mean ... they just ... like when I started out there ... I tried to get a job ... I went there 2 or 3 times to get a job and they told me all they had was kitchen help. I said ... If I work in the kitchen could I transfer to some other department there? Oh, yeah, yeah. So I went ... I started working in the kitchen. And, so, one day I went up to the Nursing Service and applied to get in there and they told me ... How long have you been working here? I said ... 3 weeks. They said ... You have to work out here 6 months before you can transfer. (laughter) I said ... 6 Months? Yeah. So ... that was the rules you know. But they never told me that in Personnel ... see, I didn't know that. So when my 6 months was up I applied and sure enough they had ... they said they had class ... you had to go to class on Nursing Service. So I told them ... I was telling my fellow worker ... co-workers ... I said I am going leave here. What do you mean? I said I'm going to Nursing Service, you make some more money over there. .. [name - inaudible - Johnson?] .. ain't going to let you leave. I said, what do you mean she's not going to let me leave? Well, she didn't let ... so-and-so tried to go over there ... she blocked Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 14
it. I said ... Well, she ain't got nothing to do with it
... this is Personnel's department. .......... just
supervises Kitchen Department you know. Well, they just ...
they didn't believe that they could leave. That they were
in that department, they thought that was were they had to
work all the time. So ... you know ... I don't how they
brainwashed them that way. Anyway ...
W: So you got out?
J: Yeah. The date ... the day the kitchen chef found out
about it ... I hear you're going to be one of the piss-pot
toters. (laughter) That's what he told me ... you know. I
said ... Yeah, they pay a little more money over there than
you all do. You don't blame me, do you? I don't know what
he told be but ...
W: Do you think you were radical?
J: I think so. I wasn't radical, I was just - uh -- what
do they call it? ... what's the word? ... I can't think of
it ... my mind don't want to function ... I have ... that's
why I have a hard time talking ... 'cause I can't think of
the terms and words ...
W: Well, it sounds like you didn't take anything off
anybody.
J: (laughter) Uh ... I say it all the time ... I wasn't
really radical ... I was just ... what's another word for
it? ... I can't think of ... but I just didn't ... when you
say radical that means you ...
Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 15
W: Oh, I meant really testing the system or you know ... challenging the way things were. Like ...
J: No ...
W: ... calling up ...
J: ... I went along with the system when I had to. But I let them know that I didn't think it was right ... you know. Like ... 'cause I can remember one time I had a bunch of insurance company file a claim for an accident. And the man at the insurance company wanted to pay me ... he didn't want to pay me what my estimate was ... he wanted to give me a certain amount of money. I said ... For what? ... my estimates says so-and-so. Well, that's all you're going to get. That's what he told me. Ooh, I was boiling. (laughter) So I walked out of his office. And I said I need me a lawyer right now. And I had nothing ... nobody in mind ... I in went in .. [name of buildings - inaudible] .. Building and looked up on the marquee and they had a whole floor of lawyers on the 11th floor ... you know. So I took the elevator and went up to the 11th floor ... and the receptionist said ... May I help you? I said ... Yes, ma'am, I need to see a lawyer. She said ... About what? ... you know. So I told her ... Automobile claims. She said ... Well, just have a seat. She asked me ... Anybody in particular? I said ... No, just anybody. So she said ... Well, I'll let you see Mr. So-and-so. So I sat there a few minutes and he called me in his office and I explained to Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 16
him what had happened. He said ... Oh, that's who that is? Armstrong? I know him. He said ... Wait a minute, let me call him up. So he called him. He said ... Armstrong, I've got a client over here that's saying that you don't want to pay him his claim. Now what's the reason for that? I don't know what he told him. He said ... Well, I'm going to send him back over there and he said if you all can't make no agreement ... we're going to recommend him to an independent lawyer and we're going to sue you. He couldn't do a ... there was a firm up there ... they didn't do no little ole jobs like that, so ... so when he got through I said ... Well, how much ... I didn't have a nickel in my pocket now ... I said ... Well, how much do I owe you? (laughter) He said ... Well, he ain't done nothing ... I ain't made nothing but a phone call. (laughter) And so when I went up to the ...... Insurance Company ... he said ... Boy, you drives a hard bargain. You know ... just like that. You know. So ... but they take advantage of you when ... just because you're Black ... I know that ... see? And ... that's just some of the incidents that I ran into after ... I mean ... you know ... it's amazing how you do ... how things happen when you get angry ... you know. I didn't ... if I'd been in my normal mind of calm ... I don't think I'd ever went up to that lawyer's office knowing there was ......... there ... they don't handle no little ole cases like I had ... you know. But I got it for nothing. Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 17
W: .......... the role of the church and ministers during the civil rights movement. I mean ... you have a photograph there of Rev. Lawson ...
J: Uh-huh.
W: ... what role did they play?
J: At that time, during the civil rights, Lawson was a .. [inaudible] .. He didn't have a church per se. And he was taking ... he was a activist. And I remember once that the Garbage Department was having problems ... no, the ... I think the Citizens ... the neighborhood ... they had a garbage dump in the neighborhood ... in .......... ... and they were protesting this dump ... they wanted it closed. The city kept on dumping out there and dumping out there ... so. And then you could smell the garbage all over the neighborhoods. And so he had a group out there protesting and so they put him in jail this particular night. And the night they raided TSU ... you heard about that raid they had? He was in jail that night. And my studio was sitting right there on the corner, where the police was congregating, but I was upstairs and it was during the month of June ... during the month ... around May or something ... because I had a lot of work to do. I was working late that night. So they let Lawson out of jail ... he said they let him out of jail to come and try to appease the students. So he came out and he went over there and talked to them ... he couldn't get no ... couldn't get them to make no agreement. Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 18
As to what they wanted I don't know what it was ... wanted them to surrender or what. So, what they were protesting the closing of Wheeler Street. Wheeler Street runs right through the campus you know ... and they had ... they had a blockade across the street ... the city ... the city property ... the city won't let you block the streets you know. But it was running right through the campus ... dormitories on one side and a building ... student's on the other side ... so they said they didn't want that street running through the campus. And so ... then Lawson came up to my place ... Mr. Joseph, let me call my wife. I heard him talking to his wife ... he said ... "Honey, they let me out of jail to try to appease the students over here." Said, "I'll be home after awhile." And then one real young preacher that I know well ... he came up there. He said ... I was listening to my radio and I heard all this commotion over here and I wanted to come over and see what it's all about. (laughter) So he came up there. Then another photographer came up there asking me if I had some film. I think I loaned him some film or something. Well, these 3 people came up there ... 2 of them was already up there ... 1 left ... so I think those policemen got nervous ... knowing ... I guess ... they didn't know whether the citizens were going to take advantage of ... going to get active with them or not ... you know. So I can imagine that's what they thought. Then they sent a policemen I knewBenny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 19
well ... Stumpy Gray we called him ... he sent him up there.
He said, "Joseph, you're going to have to close up." I
said ... Close up for what? "Well, they don't want you ...
they don't want your studio open." So I said ... Well,
okay. So I locked up everything and went downstairs. Then
the guy that was in charge of the police line he said,
"Wait, you all stand over there." I was going to get in my
car. He told me, "Hold it, wait a minute, you all stand
over there." So we stood out there. And I had a little ole
short sleeved shirt on ... it was about 2 o'clock in the
morning, and it was kind of cool. So I asked him ... What
are you going to do with us? If you're going to send me to
jail ... take me ... I said ... I'm cold out here you know.
So he got some drivers. He said, "You all take him down to
Chief Short's office." Well, Chief Short was a police chief
we had ... was real prejudiced. I think he condoned the
police brutality you know. So, by doing this ... just
before ... before he made me close up they had ... police
had went over to TSU and just shot up the area ...
dormitories over there ... the guys were putting the barrels
in the street and they lit a fire in them or something ...
you know. So they said ... I don't know what possessed them
... they just took off like an army. And they just started
shooting up ... they just shot up them dormitories ... it
was pitiful ... they just shot them up ... then another
wave'd go over there and they'd shoot them up. And I think
Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 20
one of them bullets must have really hit them policemen ...
I don't know ... kids ... they ain't found ... they said the
students shot him ... or something. But ... then they tried
to charge two students I think with ... I don't know where
they found them ... found them with a gun or something ...
but attempted murder on a policemen or something. Just two
students now. And so then they took us to jail. They took
us to Chief Short's office ... they put us in a corridor.
We were waiting on him to come to his office. Now, this was
about 3 o'clock in the morning. He comes to his office
about 6 o'clock. (laughter) You know ... we're sitting
around all that time ... sitting on those ole hard benches
... weren't no comfortable chairs in there. And so what he
was doing ....
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
W: ... you were saying that they had a meeting with all
the Black activists in Houston.
J: Yeah. Uh-huh. They ... all of ... I seen all of them
there ... just about all of I knew. And so it took me, Rev.
Lawson and Rev. Byrd ... was the 2 guys with me in my
studio. So Rev. Lawson said, "Well, Chief, before we start
anything I want to have a prayer. (laughter) So he had a
prayer and they brought in the coffee and doughnuts and
stuff. We started drinking it. What he wanted to find out
... Chief Short wanted to know did any of us instigate the
Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 21
students activity over there ... you know. That they were having. And that's what he wanted to find out. I don't think he ... nobody believes ..... or not. I know they didn't. And ... but it's just ... that's the whole significance of the meeting. I can't recall all the questions and things that was asked. But, that lasted for about an hour. So ... it was daylight when I got home. And ... but that's what I remember about the TSU riot. I was like to say something else ...
W: I was asking about ... we were talking Rev. Lawson's role.
J: Oh, yeah, yeah. That's what ... then he was out ... he's been active ever since with civil rights affairs and protests.
W: Do you think that's a proper role for a minister?
J: Well, the reason ... I think so. You know, a person ... for a person to try to be a leader ... for a civil rights leader ... and he's got him ... a job that requires political ... or even private ...it's a possibily that he might get fired. But a preacher is free from that obligation, you know. So, somebody's got to take an active part in leading the people.
W: Tell me about Juneteenth. I was curious about whether any ... whether the civil rights movement had any effect on that celebration? You said that you photographed it.
J: Uh-huh.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 22
W: For a number of years.
J: Yeah. That's ... that Juneteenth affair ... celebration ... is kind of quietened down for awhile. Even when I was a kid we used to ... it was a big day for us ... you know. And then in ... I think in the '40s and '50s ... early '40s ... late '40s and early '50s ... the participation began to die out and when Rev. Davis come to town, he was the one that really instigated it back.
W: Why do you think it was dying out?
J: Uh ... well, a new generation ... 2 or 3 generations that come about and I just think the interest isn't ... like I say it's a ... your history wasn't really ... I think a lot of kids didn't even know ... actually, like I say, they didn't study history in school about slavery time. And a lot of kids just didn't know. They're beginning now to instigate ... to have the schools to teach Black history. But it wasn't taught in the schools.
W: So you think it was just dying out naturally? You don't think the civil rights movement had anything to do with it?
J: Oh, no. In fact, that brought it back.
W: Um. How? How so?
J: Well, the people were more conscious of what happened. ..... the reason why they were having civil rights ... I mean why your civil rights was ... slavery ... really slavery time really what ... where your civil rights were Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 23
trampled on ... you know. So ...
W: Do you think the movement was any different in the rural areas than here, in a city like Houston?
J: Oh, sure.
W: How?
J: The rural areas didn't come in contact with too much predudice. They knew about it but you know ... they lived in these farm areas and their White neighbors was 2 or 3 miles away. And when they did meet ... in fact, they worked for them you know ... and that's the onlyest time they had any contact with them. It wasn't like them going to work every day ... around them. And they tell you they ... you know when I worked for the ... when I was a kid ... I was going to high school ... I worked for the meat market. And I guess I've been that way all my life ... (laughter) I delivered meat to a cafe one time and I told the lady, I says, 'The meat man's here.' And she'd be out in the front talking to somebody. So I'd tell the cook, I'd say, 'Go out there and tell the lady to come check her meat.' And she'd be scared to go in there and tell her, really. So I walked out there one day; I said, 'You want to check this meat so I can go?' (laughter) "Boy, get back from here with that ole dirty apron on!" I said ... I said ... Well, I want to know if you want to check the meat? She's telling me to get on back in the kitchen ... you know. So I go in there and I wait a few minutes and she didn't come and I just picked my Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 24
meat and went on. (laughter) When I got back ... (laughter) ... she'd called the market. I don't know what she'd told them, but they didn't send me out there no more. (laughter)
W: They didn't fire you though?
J: Uh-huh. Then I walked in the cafe one night. You know they always have the back door locked. And I pounded on the door and nobody would come to the door. So I went around to the front. I come ... I think I walked through there ... well, there wasn't nobody in the cafe that morning ... that time of morning ... it was about 5 ... 6:30 or 7. So I walked through the thing with a big ole half a cow on my shoulder and, I don't know who the guy was - "Hey, where're you going?" I said, 'I'm going to the kitchen.' "You know you ain't supposed to come through here!" I said, Well, how am I supposed to know? I said, You've got the back door locked. And I just kept going. I said, 'The Coke man come through here, why come I can't come through?' You know ... just like that.
W: He was White?
J: Yeah. So ... you know ... I questioned all these kinds of things. I don't know what the outcome of that, but I guess he made sure the back door was opening the next time. But ... no, you asked me about the rural districts? See, they didn't come in contact with all these kinds of situations I used to come in contact with. So I don't thinkBenny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 25
they had ... they were ... pressured with a lot of stuff that we did.
W: Did your mother give you ... tell you how to get along in the world? Give you any advice about how to act?
J: Unh-unh. Other than what I learned in Sunday School. You know, you just be a Christian person.
W: I meant in terms of getting along with Whites or ... you know ... what your ... ?
J: Oh, no. She ... she was mixed up with them every day you know. She used to take in washing and ironing at one time. They'd bring them ... big bundle of clothes in their cars. I remember admiring all them big Cadillacs and LaSalles they used to drive up there in. I'd go out there and pull the laundry out and take it to the house ... so. Oh, when I was going to school I was chauffeuring for a lady. You know I'd take her around to do her little morning chores, then I'd go to school in the evening. That's when I was going to photographer's school. And so we used to ... we'd go to the laundry ... pull up in the ... the laundry had a little drive you'd pull up in, and a guy'd be sitting at the desk ... Hello Mrs. .. [Hennesy?] .., how're you doing? They'd get to talking. He'd come out there and he took the laundry out of the car and he'd ... so I went up there one day ... I was by myself ... he was sitting up there at the desk ... he looked up and saw me ... and I said ... toot, toot ... (laughter) ... Bring it on in! ... you Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 26
know ... I told him ... I ain't been bringing it in! ... you know. He didn't come get it so I took it on back home.
W: (laughter)
J: I told the cook to call the cleaner and tell him come pick up some laundry out here. The man wouldn't take it from me. (laughter) So they had to come out there and pick it up with a truck.
W: They take it the next time?
J: I don't know if I went out there. I just hadn't had to go out there by myself, you know. I don't think I went ... everytime when I'd go out there she'd be with me. And she was a precious little gal. She'd sit up in the back of that car and they'd get to talking about their cooks and calls them anything ... and I'm sitting right there in the front ... you know.
W: What was your military career like?
J: Uh ... it was ... well, it was alright. I had a problem one time overseas, with my sargeant. (laughter) I thought I was sick ... I was supposed to have been sick ... but you know ... in the Army unless you've got a fever you ain't never sick. And I had been on duty that night and I was just barking ... it was cold and sleeting and snowing. I was in France that time ... and we were ... we were loading some ammunitions ... off a boxcar into a warehouse and so I told my sargeant ... I was just coughing and barking ... my chest was so sore from coughing you know ... Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 27
I told him I was sick you know. He said, Well, go to the dispensary. So I went to the dispensary and the doctor gave me some pills ... some APC pills ... aspirins you know. I said, Doctor, I need to go to bed. I don't think you're sick enough to go to bed. So he marked me duty. So I went on back to the barracks and climbed up in my bed. (laughter) And climbed up in my bed. And the sargeant came there looking for me. Joseph, what're you doing in here!? And I said, Well, I'm sick. Well, the doctor didn't mark you sick! I said ... I can't ... he don't know how sick I am. And they wanted to court-martial me for that ... sure did.
W: How did you get out of it?
J: I don't know. I think they just let it drop. We ... the liuetenant talked to me one day, and I think they just decided to leave it alone ... you know. They scared me up like they were going to court-martial me. Of course they could have, I guess. But that's the onlyest ... now we had a ... when I got ready to get discharged ... we had ... our company was ... see I came back from overseas ... we were going to go to Japan. And they dropped that bomb ... atomic bomb ... and we were ready to travel overseas and so they just shipped us on home. That's how I got the chance to come home, a long time before I was due ... that I was eligible to. Low points you know ... they discharged on low point system. So we had to stay here ... I stayed in the Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 28
Army about 6 months ... about a year after I got home. And all we'd do is do a little duty on the post. And everybody was coming through ... all the officers come through that thing ... they was getting discharged sometime or another ... it wasn't no ... nothing GI ... nothing too ... we just had as much freedom as you wanted to. So we had an officer that re-enlisted. He came there and he wanted everything accounted for. And that morning I didn't make a ... I didn't make reveille ... is that what they call it now? ... reveille? ... (laughter) ... I've done forgot the term. So that morning they called the roll, and he had my name ... no, he called me in and said ... You wasn't at reveille this morning. And I said ... Well, I didn't have to be. What do you mean, you don't have to be? I said, Well, according to a memorandum we've got in the files ... see I was the little ole company clerk then at that time ... so ... according to the files ... memorandum we've got in the files, company clerks didn't have to make reveille. Where is it at? So I went in the files and got it and showed it to him. And, I don't know ... evidently that didn't make any difference with him ... because when I got ready to get discharged there was an order in my files for me to be reduced to a private, you know. Sure was.
W: What was your ...?
J: I was a sargeant. Tech ... T/Sargeant. To be reduced to a private. So I just took that out and balled it up and Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 29
threw it away. (laughter)
W: (laughter)
J: I don't know where we was going ... but we was going ... I was getting out of the Army then I didn't care ... you know. You know I guess that's why I said I'd never re-enlist in the Army ... I hated the Army. Oh ... you had no ... I realized that you didn't have no rights ... you didn't have any ... any ... well, they tell you everything they want you to do and it's just ... I just couldn't take it no more.
W: Well, it's kind of like civilian life, people bossing you around.
J: Yeah. I guess ... uh-huh ... uh-huh.
W: Well, I can't think of ... I think we've pretty much covered everything that's on my little list. Is there anything you'd like to add?
J: Oh ... militant was the word I wanted to use. I guess ... (laughter) ...
W: Oh, militant ... yeah ... yeah.
J: I guess most of my life was ... telling you all my militant part ...
W: Yeah. Actually, I did have one other question ... that is ... where do you think we should go from here? Do you think we need another civil rights movement? Do you think things are okay? Do you ... ?
J: Uh ... I don't know ... I don't know.Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 30
W: Are there still some changes ...?
J: I don't think ... I don't think ...
W: ... think we need?
J: Some people are having problems. I'm not having any. I'm not in the workforce anymore, so if I was out there looking for a job I'd maybe have some ... something else. But that's the onlyest thing I can think of. But we've got people getting good jobs ... better than they ever got before. You know when I was a kid I didn't even have enough sense to go to college. Because there wasn't nothing out there I could get, unless I'd be a teacher. By me not being a talker I thought that was the last think I could do was teach. And so ... really, I didn't have any sense. I didn't know anything about. You know what I'd have been? I'd have been a good engineer. But I didn't even know what an engineer was when I got out of high school. You know ... that's just how much education I ... they ... we had ... we had ... came around our way. And because I was mechanical- inclined and I'd take a ... I'd do anything ... you know ... like electrical work ... plumbing work ... keep up my .. [inaudible] .. ... I never had .. [inaudible] .. my house. I even went to school ... when I get curious about something I don't understand I go to school and study ....... When I bought this place it had a sophisticated air conditioning system in it. And the guy who came around here and checked it out ...... called him out to come check it out he ... andBenny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 31
I would question him ... I'd say ... What is all this for? See, I've got a zone system up there ... air conditioning puts ....... different rooms ... he'd program it to whatever zone you'd want. And he told me all about this and all about that, and I said ... Well, I'd better go to school and learn some more about this. (laughter) So I went over ... .......... ... I mean to the Community College and took a course in air conditioning. For about a year. Learned as much as I wanted to know ... you know. But anytime something breaks or something, either I'm going to fix it or ... if I can't fix it then I get a ... you know ... get the professional man to do it. But I can always figure out the reason why it ....... . But a lot of little things you just take it loose and you can look at it and see why it don't work. And I'm good at that.
W: So you don't think that ... I mean ... you think Blacks have it pretty good?
J: Uh ... ........... I know there's a lot of stuff out there ... Jesse Jackson's complaining about. Right now I can't off-hand think of what they are. You know ...
W: Oh, I think some people think there's still prejudices and racism ... it's just more underground these days ... it's not as ... you know ... you don't see it as much but it's still there.
J: Yeah. It could be ... you can't help that. I realize that ... people are going to be for their race ... now, Benny Joseph, Photographer (Tape 2 of 2) 32
whether they be mistreated now I don't believe in mistreating nobody ... being prejudice. But you're going to favor your race or anything ... that's just human nature I think. You know, because the guy running for office ... one White ... one Black ... you're going to vote for the Black one ... you know ... not all the time ... but two chances out of one you will. And but not all the time because that's the fact ........ too ... you know.
W: Uh-huh. Well, I can't think of anything else, can you? J: No. I guess that about sums it up.
W: Well, thanks.
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.