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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH:
DATE:
PLACE:
INTERVIEWER:
Dr. Amy Freeman Lee
October 4, 1983
Incarnate Word College, San Antonio
Esther Mac Millan
M: Amy Lee, your column in Who' s Who in American Women
runs, I guess , about eight inches long. And it tells all
the honors that you have received in a lifetime, so far.
All the committees, all the boards you serve on. In other
words, it's public knowledge. Instead of drawing on all
those things, what I want to do for this interview, which
will go into the archives at The Institute of Texan
Cultures, is, I would like to know why you got to be this
lady who functions on practically every brain cell in her
head. They keep saying to us, ''You don't use half of your
brain _ .. "; I have the feeling you're using all of yours.
(laughter)
L: I don't know about that.
M: When I do these interviews, I project fifty years from
now; how is this interview going to be viewed? I picture a
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t'\~ B person fifty years from now, having come across all this
publicity in the pape~ and all of these things, _ _ _ I think
of this person as young, a writer, a researcher, saying,
"Hey, what about this Amy Freeman Lee? She did so much_ She
accomplished so much on so many fronts_ How did she get that
way?"
What I'd like to have you do today is tell how you grew
up_ What were your influences, your environment? Why did
you get to be this almost what I would call a Renaissance
woman?
L: Well, that's a very challenging question, Esther_ I
can only tell you what I believe to be true, of course_ I
have to be very personal because it's a very personal
question_ In a way, I have great hesitancy using the pronoun
"I" when I refer to myself as an individual_ And the reason
that I say that is not out of modesty, false or otherwise,
it's becaus e I really have the belief that in life what we
have that is innate, is a gift_ And each person has a gift
or gifts_ We have to discover those gifts_ The
responsibility i s to develop them to serve the commonweal_
When I was four years old, I lost my mother in that
infamous flu epidemic in 1918- So now you know how old I
am_ As a matter of fact, I celebrated by 69th birthday
yes tet·day _
M: Good for you!
L: And I love be ing born on Octobe r the third because
that's the date immediately preceding the date of st_
Francis' birthday, my favorite s aint, with whom I share the
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L: consummate love for all the creation. My late
grandmother Freeman~ my maternal grandmother~ reared me.
Grandmother Freeman was a small, but very forceful, powerful
French matriarch _ All of my maternal side is French . She
had some very~ very definite ideas about values; about the
purpose of life; about personal responsibility_ She was
very demanding of herself and of everybody around her. I
used to t.hink that she was just too fm·ceful, too powerful~
too imposing_ And as one grows up, one realizes how very
wise one,s grandmother was. So I 7m grateful to her.
The point is t hat she nurtured me in every possible way
with enormous personal love. Her whole life was really
focussed on me. She gave me every opportunity in the world .
She felt that for young ladies to grow up properly, one
should have the opportunity to study everything_
She started reading to me when I was in the cradle.
And I credit my passion for reading ___ and I have passion
for it _ __ I'm an omnivorous reader . _ _ I credit her
with that. No day goes by that I don~t read. I don,t say
that I understand everything that I read but as the British
say, I 7m giving it a bully try.
And then in addition to going to school, (and I've gone
to school every way there is to go and I'll come back to
that)~ she always saw to it that I s tudied painting and
dancing and music and what we used to call in those days~
elocution, speech.
Now, Grandmother Freeman never expected me to take any
of this seriously, you understand. Not to pursue it
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L: professionally. It was just to round me out, to try to
grow up to be a civilized, cultivated, gracious person. And
I used to tease her and say, "Well, Mama," (we called her
"Mama dear") "Mama dear, you really are a fake." And she'd
say, "Why do you say that?" I'd say, "By the time some poor,
pitiful young man gets me, he's going to find out I can't
dance and sing and elocut.e or whatever_" But I did take it
seriously from the beginning.
I can't answer the question about why one has a
propensity, Esther, because that is a part of the mystery.
I never can remember myself when I didn't want to be
involved in the arts. I had two innate qualities from
birth: a passionate love of everything _ minerals,
vegetables, insects, fish, reptiles, birds, animals _ _ _
the whole thing_ And not because I loved those things more
than people, but I always felt we were all made by God, and
we were one. I know that's true now as I've grown up. Now
I have not only the intellectual but also the scientific
substantiation, because now we know that we all come from
the same genetic code.
Well, the other is my passion for the arts and my
desire to be in the arts. I said I've gone to school in
every possible way_ I've been to country public school;
I've been to private independent school; I've been to
parochial school; I've been to private liberal arts college;
I've been to state universities, and I've studied in a
tutorial system. The last is my favorite. If you have a
brilliant tutor, you can advance at your own speed.
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L: So I really have been very lucky in that I've been able
to pursue what I loved; I've had a love affair with all of
it_ And I think that is the answer to the variety of things
I~m interested in_ My ability to try to do it is because I
have the love for it, and I was encouraged to do it_
M: You mention innate gift_ This is interesting to me
because you're getting in, then, to inheritance. In other
words, inheritances aren't always doled out evenly, are
they?
L: No_ My great teac her, the lat.e Dr_ Raymond Roehl, who
for many years was Chairman of the Department of English at
Incarnate Word College, used to discuss this_ I really
credit him with what true educaton I have, because he
opened the windows of the world to me_ He was a master
teacher_
M: Here at Incarnate Word?
L: Here at Incarnate Word. I studied with him eight years
and taught wi th him for two, so for ten years of my
formative period he was a major influence in my life_
M: What department?
L: English. Dr_ Roehl used to talk about the three aspects
that touch the life of every huma n being: Inheritance _
to him, inheritance simply mean t the corporeal body that
covered the soul. You might get a healthy one, you might
get a maimed one, you might get a crippled one_ The n ame of
the game was that nothing that ha ppened to you was important
only what y ou did about. it. The second thing were the
environmental influences ... family, c hurch, state,
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L: school, and the ambience. The third, he said, which was
the most important, was the inheritor himself, because it
was the inheritor who determined what he was going to do
with his environmental influences and his corporeal body. So
I was really brought up on that concept.
I think, if one is intellectually honest, one knows
what talents he has. It's nothing to be falsely modest
about, because you can't take credit for them. They are a
gift. As the ancient Greeks used to say, they are a gift
from the gods. And you ascertain them and you nourish them
for the sake of serving the commonweal.
You see, my grandmother used to say, for every dollar I
leave you, you owe two.
H: That's interesting_
L: She always demanded that. All the members of the family
were trained for service.
M: In my days of college, we had this dichotomy: your
inheritance v e rsus your environment _ .. identical twins
has that ever been solved? Have they ever brought
those two together _ _ . the environment and inheritance
working together as a team or do they s it apart like this?
L: There are still differences of opinion about it. The
determinists, as you know, the positivists, feel that
whatever it is that you received when you came into the
world, determined everything you were going to be. I have
never believed that, because that's a denial of free will .
I'm a monist if you want to speak about it in spiritual
terms ... I won't even use the phrase theol ogicial,
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L: because that implies some sectarianism . I think that
the creative spir it is immanent and transcendent and is in
everything. Is everything. As a matter of fact, I know
that sometimes this is considered very corny now, but love
is God, and if you permit love to work, you'll find it
everywhere. You just have to l et it become active in your
life.
I believe in three basic principles of the ism. One, I
believe in the existence and operation of a creative spirit
. _ . most people call that spirit God. Henri Bergson, the
great French philosopher, called it elan vital. Call it
whatever name you like.
I believe in the immortality of the spirit, soul. And
I believe in the existence and operation of free will. You
are given the opportunity to make choices . Life is choice.
And that's an interesting phrase because it has a double
meaning. It could be choice if you make the correct c hoices,
so I'm an anti-determinist.
Scien~e i s be ginning now to substantiate many things
that ancient mystics knew. For example, Dr. Richard
Bergland, of Harvard, who considers the brain as the largest
gland in the body, i s coming out with a new book. In it he
deals with the functioning of the two sides of the brain.
The right side of the brain conceives the world through
pictures , sees everything as a whole and is involved with
intuition and feeling. The left brain conceives the world
through wor ds , sees everything separate ly, devotes itself to
facts and fee l s nothing_ In order to be whole, you have to
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L: have the two working simultaneously_
Now, the theory ~hat I have is that one more time the
creative spirit is giving us an opportunity to do the right
thing _ For the past decades, we have worshipped science.
M: Yes, we certainly have.
L: So I think the creative spirit is saying, "You used
science incorrectl'(.• resulting in dualism." (My brilliant
friend, Dr. Ruth Nanda Anshen, who is a protege of Dr.
Alfred North Whitehead's and who edits a series of books by
eminent people in many different disciplines calls that
splitting the godhead. The duality_) When Aristotle left
the principles of his great teacher, Plato, he divided mind
and matter. But now I think the creative spirit is playing
a great cosmic joke on us , because the spirit is saying,
"All right, you're going to take this great golden calf that
you worship, science, and through science, you're going to
substantiate the things that the mystics always knew and
t.hat. way you're going to understand that. we are all one _"
M: Do you see that coming?
L: Yes, I really do. It's already here.
M: You really do?
L: I believe it to be true_
M: I think that's very hopeful.
L: You're going to see philosophic and spiritua l
revolutions. You're going to see radical changes. (Radical
changes in the sens e of going to the root o f things_)
You're going to see that happen all the way across the
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L: board. And it better, Esther, or we're not going to
survive on this planet.
M: Didn't you, in your education . __ wasn't e verything
canted toward science? Mine was.
L: Yes~ but I never fell for it.
M: I did.
L: I was always a liberal arts major. I loved reading; I
majored in litera ture and in criteriology . . . a branch of
philosophy that deals with evaluation of aesthetics. I do
see that to be better educated than I am, I should have had a
larger and broader scientific background. We need both.
M: It certainly makes you ... you're much more
questioning. I love the idea of it coming together. That's
very hopeful to me.
L: J. Robert Oppenheimer said all great scientists and all
great artists are always dancing on the edge of mystery.
That is a way of saying that in order to be whole, we have
to have science and art working together. And I've often
said that I agree with that, because I' ve tried to dance
there all my life, and it's the greatest fandango in the
business. I wouldn't take anything for the challenge.
M: You spoke of mysticism and that's another reason why I
felt a kinship with you. In things I've read about you, in
your painting particularly, you have a mysticism in your
painting_ What are you trying to say in your painting?
L: I really think it's both, Esther. Let me try to
verbalize some ideas about the non-verbal art of painting
jus t as a supplement, not as a substitute for the visual.
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L: I've always been inte rested in what was around the bend
in the river. I was born here at Santa Rosa Hospital, but my
family lived in Seguin at that time. In those days it was
really a village just thirty miles east of here. And so we
went back home after my mother got out of the hospital
following my birth. I grew up on the Gaudalupe River. My
grandmother used t~ say, ''If you can't find Amy Bernice,
look around the bend of the river." Because I always _
wanted to know what's on the other side of the looking
glass. It's necessary to stretch yourself, to be curious
and interested. I used to say to my late grandmother, "Tell
me - _ _ where does the sun really go and the moon really go
when they set? Don't tell me that it goes behind the
horizon, because that doesn't mean a nything to me. I want
to know where they r eally go_" It' s a way of s aying that
that whic h is beyond the obvious has always beckoned to me.
The Sufis , the great Islamic mystics , have a phrase
called "activa ting the subl e ties ." That has f asc inated me.
In my painting I'm trying to the bes t of my ability, through
the silent language of order and des ign, to convey
ideational conceptions , ideas, not just trees or flowers
- _ _ I have nothing against naturalistic or realistic
pa inting, but I'm really a symbolist. What I paint, I hope,
stands for many things _ Some more s ubtle than others.
You see, all art forms are love affairs , because we're
beckoning people to come live with us a little while and
s ha re our love. And I am trying to portray rea lity_ Dr.
Roehl used to say, "Reality always lies beneath the
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L: surface." And he used to have us read a fabulous book
by late Dr. John Vance of Oxford, called ''Reality and
Truth." A long, philosophic tome. The thematic leitmotif of
that book is that reality is constituted of that which is
becoming, not that which is.
M: Oh?
L: The late 19th ~nd earl y 20th century Swiss painter, Paul
Klee, always admonished his students, ''Never paint form;
paint forming." So I'm always trying to capture that which
is in the process of developing_ In that way, yes, I try to
paint some aspects of mysticism.
M: Mercy! This is a new thought to me. Realism is a
becoming. I thought realism was there _ _ _ that table
lS
L: I know. That i s a false concept_ I'll tell you how I
think it evolved. When you live in a society that i s
primarily pragmatic, materialistic, you also have a false
philosophy_
H: Yes .
L: Philosophy underlies everything_
M: Sure it does.
L: Hy fri e nd, Ruth Nanda Ans hen, in a marvelous foreword to
astro-phycicist, Dr. Fred Hoyle's book titled Encounter with
the Future wrote : "Everyt.hing depends upon the aims we
cherish." Philosophy i s your guide in life, for it sets
your priorities , establishes your principles , provokes your
conduct.
M: Do you think everyone has a philos ophy or do s ome people
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M: have it but are not aware of it?
L: I think everybody·' has a philosophy, but there's a great
irony involved there. If you don't have a philosophy,
that's your philosophy , and it will show up in your life.
You are a rudderless ship without philosophy.
M: That's interesting_
L: It motivates eyerything you do.
H: When you're going to paint a picture, does a l ight come
on? Do you get a lightening idea for a creation or does it
develop slowly _ _ _ something happens in your life that
gives you an idea ___ "I've got to see if I can put this
on canvas." How do you go about doing a painting?
L: Well, of course , as you know, everybody is different. I
would never presume to speak for anyone but myself_ As I
think about it intellectually ___ of course .mnemonically,
from memory _ I can only tell you what's in my
conscious mi nd, because obviously i f it's not in my conscious
mind, I can't tell you. And I'm smiling , because that which
remains in the unconscious is intuitive and is the mystery,
and that' s what makes the whole work live.
As for the conscious part generally speaking, I have an
idea which I wish to convey_ I know what the idea is; I
understand it, at least in a limited fashion, intellec tual ly _
However, the challenge for me is that as you are developing
an idea, you must learn to roll with the punches because if
you block emotion and intuition you will come up with a
sterile work. You might have an i llus tration but you won't
have a painting_ The challenge is to learn to hold to the
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L: concept with the left side of the brain and let the
right side of the brain function freely with emotion and
feeling and intuition. So that the two are always in
balance.
M: Can you do that?
L: I try_
M: You can? Really?
L: When something feels right to you, that means that
you've accomplished your intent. There the painting was
verve, the juices of life, passion and what the Germans call
"zucht,'' energy_ It isn't dehydrated, and yet the concept
is there.
M: Is there sort of a welling up as you go from the
subconscious?
L: Sometimes you,re aware of it; sometimes you're not. For
example, this sounds as though one is coy_ I never was coy
and I'm a little too old to start now_ You step back and
look at something you've done and sometimes it's a total
surprise to you.
M: Really?
L: Although you never really finish, but when you cease
working on a painting and you put it up and let it marinate
in the closet for awhile, then bring it out, look at it,
objectively, and although you know you did it, you really
don't have any memory of the details of it.
M: Isn't that interesting_ So it's something beyond your
actual self.
L: Yes. When it's really substantive and significant, it's
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L: always something working beyond one's self.
M: Did you start to paint when you were very young?
L: Yes. I started to paint formally; that is, to study,
when I was seven. I studied with a protege of the late Jose
Arpa, Mrs. Joe Saegart, who lived in Seguin. Arpa only took
master students.
M: Were you good trom the beginning or were you just like
all children . . . sort of stick figures and
L: I don't know, Esther. I'll have to let somebody else
answer that. I can tell you this. Water is my element.
That's strange because I don't fish or swim or waterski or
sail; it's just anything that has to do with water: in
water, under water, by water, fascinates me. And so, when I
was a little girl, no matter what the class painted, I
painted ships. I didn't know a thing about ships, and Mrs.
Saegart would call my grandmother and say, "Mrs. Freeman,
she's coming home with another painting of ships. Of course
we painted nasturtiums today, but Amy Bernice refused to
paint still life. She just painted ships. I've always
been very independent in that way.
M: Well, that independence has served you well, too, hasn't
it?
L: Well, I hope I used it well, Esther. My intention has
been to do so.
M: We've got to talk about Han and Beast. This 1s
something that to me is terrifically important.
Particularly the tough world we're living in today; the
non-caring part of the world. I have read this now
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M: this is your baby; you organized Man and Beast. It,s
such an interesting name. I know about the well-established
one (Humane Society) ... we bought our dogs from them for
years ... but you put Man and Beast together. This is
terribly interesting. How did you come to do that?
L: Let me answer you in this way to be absolutely accurate.
It may seem tangential but I 7 ll come back to your question
more directly.
A long time ago, I had a retros pective exhibition; a
survey of my work. And I had a sign put up which said:
"There's no such thing as a one-man show." And I believe
that. Nobody does anything alone. There were many
dedicated, humane people involved in the Man and Beast,
particularly my late friend, Mrs. Richardson Hamilton, Lucy
Hamilton . Lucy gave the organization its name, Man and
Beast Incorporated, becaus e she wanted the acronym M A B I.
Our motto is: "If we all work togethe r, maybe we,ll make
it." That is a way of saying, we must love one another .
All of my life I have been deeply moved by the
so-called lower creatures. Long before I knew the word
humane or humane ethics, long before I could
intellectualize, as a child I have no memory of myself when
I was n't just deeply, deeply involved with animals. And
because I lived in a country town, I was so blessed with
many pets . My grandmother let me have a horse, pony,
donkey, rabbits , banty chickens, and I always had dogs . I
think God made dogs to make the trip possible.
H: (laughter) You've a lso said a person's life is measured
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M: by dogs_
L: A human being's life is about seven dogs long_
So that has been my lifelong commitment. If you could
x-ray my s pirit, you would see my de votion to humane ethics.
If you were to cha llenge me and say, "Amy, from this moment
forward you may not do anything except one activity."
Unhesitating, I would choose humane ethics.
M: You would.
L: I would. Why? I think if we do not get on top of the
brutality, cruelty and violence that motivate this world,
we're not going to survive on this planet. Not because I say
so, but because the ecologists tell us that.
I go t o an international e cological conference every
year, and there are no Lolits there; there are no little old
ladies in tennis s hoes . There are all scientists talking
about a ir, wa ter, s oil, food and each other. In summary,
we're not in good shape_
So , to get back t o the l ocal group_ You have to start
where you a re_ I have many people say , ''We ll, what can I
do? I'm not a movie star , I'm not a great athlete." That
doesn't get you off the hook. Wherever you are , y ou can
work_ I live in San Antonio . There's a job to be done here
in a ll the areas .
So we formed this l ocal group, whic h has grown. We
help find t he homes of lost dogs and cats and f o r other
animals that people can no l onger keep_ So it's a humane
t hrust in this community_
We 've a l s o f ormed a lia i son with other groups in town
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L: and we are trying to work with the Animal Control (the
City Pound) _ ·'
H: How are you doing with that?
L: Well, I think we've got our foot in the door. We have
permission now to start a small adoption program. The
situation there has been very bad for decades.
Then, I've setved a s a national trustee of the Humane
Society of the United States with headquarters in Washington
for sixteen years.
I also belong to a state group called Texas Humane
Information Network that lobbys for humane legislation. We
finally passed a law against dog fighting to supplement the
federal law.
There's a federal law against dog fights but in that
law, you have to be caught actually handling the animal.
We've now passed a state law that if your feet are on the
property where t he dog fight is t aking place, you can be
indicted and tried. There are just so many t angents to this
and so many needs, that it's endless. But that i s what the
Texas Humane Information Network i s all about.
H: Have you been able to avoid suffering terribly?
L: No. I'm glad you a sked me that. Up until about s ixteen
years ago , other than private acts, such as rescuing animals,
taking them to the vets and finding homes, I didn't associate
myself formally, because I didn't think I could take it. It
was really going to make me violently sick . Then I realized,
Esther, seriously, that I wasn't getting any younger and that
if I didn't f ace this, I was going to be disappointed in
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L: myself all my life. I thought, all right, if I get
sick, I'll just have to get sick and get well and get up and
do it again. And that's what I've done .
H: Have you? It's hard though, isn't it?
L: Very hard. But I want to tell you something _ You have
to master the suffering if you want to get the job done .
And beyond that _ ~ , . let me tell you the real challenge_
(This is a real confession.) The real challenge for me has
been to get rid of the rage; to get rid of the anger; to get
rid of the hatred, for people who are cruel and violent.
H: Can you do it?
L: Yes, through the grace of God I've done it. You want to
know why? Because I wanted more than anything in the world
~o be successful in this_ And I knew that if I had the hate
in me it would show. And God, I have worked on it and
prayed.
And I'll tell you something else_ Whenever I've
dreaded anything in life, really dreaded, I've always had to
face it. And I always knew that someday I was going to have
to face the people who use animals in medical
experimentation _
H: I was about to ask you about vivisection_
L: Of course, I'm a passionate, devoted antivivisectionist;
have been all my life. I belong to both of the national
groups. One is called National Antivivisection and one,
American Antivivisection_ But, it has been my privilege and
opportunity to address numbers of groups of people, medical
groups, scientific groups, that use animals in
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L: experimentation. And my job is to go in there with
mutual respect, if no·t with mutual admiration, to present
our side of the story in a reasonable, logical, civilized
way and to open up communications.
Now let me tell you why I think there is room for
optimism. I'm not an optimist or pessimist. But I think it
is realistic to sa~ . that there are some signs that we are
beginning to see the light at tMe end of the tunnel. Let me
be specific. I never dreamed that I would live to see
animal rights taken seriously. We now have it as a subject
in the Departments of Philosophy; textbooks are being
written about it. I did a symposium for Texas Lutheran
College in Seguin on it. The University of Denver is
working; the University of Colorado is working on it. There
are many thrusts now in this.
I never expected to live to see legislation on behalf
of animals, especially in the south, southwest and west. We
are now taken seriously in legislative as well as
educational circles. So it's a tiny beginning. But we're
moving in the right direction.
M: And it's people like you, you see, who have given the
thrust. You don't sit back and suffer and wring your hands.
L: That won't help anybody.
And it had to be done in a reasonable manner. And I
want to be as objective as I c an.
One of the great drawbacks to the humane movement has
been that there are some people in it, as there are in all
movements, who are fanatics. They give the entire movement
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L: a very bad name. It's taken a lot of blood, sweat and
tears to change that image.
I want to credit the Humane Society of the United States
largely, for accomplishing that. Our president, Hr. John
Hoyt, has done a superb job as well as all the people on that
staff.
M: It warms your heart, certainly. What do you say when -·
somebody says, "Well, if we hadn ' t done this experiment on
animals, human beings would be losing their lives. We have
now discovered the cure for so and so because we
experimented on animals." How do you handle that question?
L: The bottom line they ask me from the audience is, "Would
you rather a rat lose its life or a child?" They always try
to trap you in that. And it is necessary to be prepared with
a reasonable answer.
And this is what I say: "Each human being must act
within the framework of his own convictions. My personal
conviction is, as a human being, born with the gift of a
mind, I mus t use that mind correctly, fulfill my
responsibilities correctly. I do not think I have the
ethical, moral or spiritual right to take the life of any
sentient being and make it suffer for any reason. That's my
personal conviction."
Officially, I represent the policies of The Humane
Society of the U.S. I can live with them as a realistic
approach to the problem. I say to the people who experiment
in animals: "If we could just start with the following
. _ _ do not do experiments over and over and over again
LEE
21
L: when you already have the answer, jus t to get money and
grants for your laboratory_ Establish a central, national
center with computer feedbac k where any scientist, any
doctor, any technician, can punch a button and get the answer
that the research has already been done_"
M: Don't they do that?
L: Not yet_ Take .c are of the animals humanely before,
during, and after the experimentation_ Use the anaesthetic
eve ry time that it's abs olutely poss ible_ Never do an
experiment unless you can prove scientifically and convince
yourself s piritually, that it i s absolutely necessary_ If
we could just start with those princ iples, we'd be ahead_
Because let me tell you, Es ther, what the bottom line
of all of this is_ The spiritual principle is that when a
pers on commits a bruta l, crue l, violent act, those acts
become a s piritual boomerang_ And they come bac k and cut
t he head of our own s pirit off_ That i s a way of saying, we
d e huma nize ourselves _ We desensi tize ourselves_ Whe n we do
that, we cease to car e and we a r e dangerous_ Because then
y ou'd just as soon kill a person as pick a fl owe r_ And if
this seems an exaggeration, recall Truman Capote's
interviews with the people on d eath row who are murde rers ,
who h ave murde red multiple times _ They know they did i t but
there ' s no fee ling in them a nymore _ They just view it as
t hough it' s a t e l e vis ion s h ow or a movie_
M: Yes .
L: This i s at the core of me _
M: That ' s the thing_
LEE
22
L: And I don't want to be misunderstood; we're not home
free yet._ . 1
M: Mercy, no_
L: We can still lose this planet. You better believe it_
And we've got to work with every erg of our energy_
Let me give you another insight_ I've devoted a lot of
my life to formal e.d. ucation; all of my life_ Still in it_
Why? Because I think it's the most effective, practical,
realistic tool for civilization and for culture to be
established_ We have to appeal to human beings when they
are very, very young_ How young? From birth. To be born
into a home where humane ethics is extant, operative, is
ideal_ Unfortunately, this isn't true for the majority of
children_ We have to try to reach them at the earliest
possible moment in school. Elementary school is the vital
pet·iod _
And I've got to tell you about something that I've
become involved in recently_ At my age, I'm trying to taper
off, but I keep finding so many things that are so
fascinating, I can't_
There is a school in Houston, Texas, called The Wilhelm
Scho1a. It is named for the late Steve Wilhelm, Senior_
The school is founded and directed by his daughter, Marilyn
Wilhelm. Schole means "the love of lea rning_" It is a
school for children three through thirteen and is in its
eighteenth year_ Almost all the children have working
parents _ To accommodate the working days, the school is
open from seven in the morning until six in the evening_
LEE
23
L: It's an extended family concept_ There's a remarkable
rapport between staff~ administrators, faculty and children.
It is a beautiful thing to experience. I've been there many
times and am imbued with its spirit.
The children have a love of learning; a love of helping
one another. The quality of the teaching is superb . They
have retired profes.. s ors from colleges and universities .
Mrs. Wilhelm has said, and rightly so, that the Schole's a
kind of university_
The approach is holistic_ All of the sciences and arts
are an integral part of the curriculum. If they study the
period 1839-1939, they know the art, the religion,
economics, the politics, the whole ambience and the
understanding of it_
It's a school that has twenty countries represented;
nine religions; it is an absolutely enchanting experience to
go to that school; to be a participant_ I'm proud to be a
part of it.
Let me tell you why I mentioned it_ Aldous Huxley once
said--by the way, Mrs_ Wilhelm is a great personal friend of
Mrs. Aldous Huxley-- Aldous Huxley onc e wrote that it is
possible to establish an oasis in the midst of all the
chaos. Marilyn Wilhelm has done that_ When you see this
spirit alive there, it gives you hope for the future,
because those children are the fut.ure _ And we've got t .o
work with them if we're going to save this planet_ That's
what we're talking about.
M: Sure. How many children is she dealing with?
LEE
L: It generally runs about 175.
M: That many?
L: Yes.
,1
M: Does it cost a lot of money? I s it just for the
privileged?
L: No 7 no. Just the opposite. Fifteen percent of them are
on scholarships. .
M: Where does she get her money? Where does she have her
school?
L: That's a very challenging question. The school is just
about to move to a new location. It 7 S been located in a
Presbyterian church 7 at 3611 Cummings Lane 7 in Houston. But
it 7 s going to move to 4242 Richmond. How does she get her
money? Through tuition and her personal sacrifice. She's
forming a board now; advisory board; parent group. And
we're all going to pitch in and help_ Because that school
has to survive.
I'd like to see this school, with its concepts,
established all over the world. I mean i t .
M: I was going to ask you if there' s any chance of getting
her ovet· here?
L: There is. I want The Institute of Texan Cultures to
present an exhibition of the children's work and to have her
come and speak. She 7 s coming in this week. I'm going to
interview her on Dr. Sean Burke's "Wrap Around" for KMOL-TV.
She's going to be a guest on Mary Denman's WOAI radio show,
"Morning Magazine." She is also going to address the
departments of Political Science, Psychology, Education and
24
LEE
L: History here at Incarnate Word College on October 6th.
M: Is she good? Does she present her story well?
L: Mrs. Wilhelm is one of those very rare individuals on
whom the gods have shined. They have graced her with a most
telling physical beauty; a brilliant mind; and a cultivated
spirit. She is one of the most extraordinary individuals I
have ever known.
M: How old a women is she?
L: Fifty.
M: She's still got a lot of time yet.
L: I hope so. For the sake of the world, I hope she has.
M: That leads us very nicely and gently into your marvelous
talent for speaking_ The day that you were going to speak
to the new citize ns, I took time off and went upstairs.
L: Aren't you kind. I appreciate that.
M: That was a stem-winder, I tell you! You gave it to
them. I was just so enthusiastic about that speech and I
thought, it's too bad they don't get Amy Lee to do them all.
L: Oh my, what a beautiful compliment.
M; I thought to myself _ _ _ I must tell this _ . _ when
your dear friend died and you cancelled your speech to the
docents down at The Institute _ _ _ who do you think filled
in for you? Me.
L: Good.
M: Can you imagine substituting for Amy Freeman Lee, who is
a whizz-bang speaker? You've got to know your subject; and
you have to go before an audience with a lot more than
you're going to tell them. I learned that early on. A lot
25
LEE
26
M: of things here (in the head) so that it will come free.
You have this marvelous spirit ... you're enthusiastic
. and you have all this knowledge to draw on. And one
of the things I love about your speaking is your sense of
humor. You're going along in this very serious fashion and
all of a sudden there,s a flash of fun. Is this natural to
you or have you learned that this is a trick of speaking?
L: It's natural to me. I am so grateful to the gods for
it. I really feel without humor, we can't make it through
the day.
I thought that before my good friend, Norman Cousins,
wrote in The Anatomy of an Illness, that he had beat the rap
through medical care, vitamin C, and laughter. Joy is the
greatest healer.
There are so many influences at work in one's life. I
credit my Uncle Harry Freeman who is now going on 95 and in
his 8lst consecutive year of work. Unfortunately, he is
very ill at the moment. He always had a great sense of
of humor, ioie de vivre. And we always teased each
other in wonderful, gentle ways_ It comes naturally
to me. I did notice, belatedly, that audiences respond.
I'm very sensitive to audiences; they fascinate me.
You know within the first one or two minutes whether
you're connecting or not. I did notice when I said
things just naturally that came to me off the top of my
head, when I was speaking, that those were the things
the audience remembered.
FND OF TAPE I, Side 1, 45 minutes
L.EE
~~) -7
"'-·'
TAPE I, Side 2
·~ 1.
L: Anyway, to get back to the point about humor,
Voltaire, of course was a great example. He said that
the best way to teach was by giving people the
opportunity to laugh. I always think of humor as the
epoxy of life. It~s the binder in life. When you live
a span of time, and God has graced me with that ...
you have many experiences. Some of them are funny_ Or
if you didn~t find them funny, you wouldn't survive if
you didn~t find a humorous element in it. And so, when
you speak~ one memory brings on another one .. .
connotation. You~re like a palimpsest ... great
layers of the history of your life .
And so I may not have any of these in my notes
_ you know~ I never read to my audiences _ .. I
don't want anyone to insult me by reading to me. I've
been reading since I ~m four. Now if the speaker reads
I just get up and walk out on a t alk . I want to say to
the s peaker, ''Send me a copy of the talk and when I'm
home, stretched out, drinking a cup of tea, I'll read
wha t you ha ve to say."
But a nyway , I noticed that when I~m speaking, I
may not ha ve any of these stories in my key notes _ _ .
I just us e key notes so that I don't get t oo far afield
and talk for e v e r, which I can do without any
encouragement a nyway ___ I jus t l et it come
extemporaneously, and when it' s natural, then it's
LEE
L: congruous and pertinent. And that's how that comes
about. .,1
M: This is going from the sublime to the ridiculous or
the ridiculous to the sublime or something, but you
were quoted a while ago - - - are you still living in
the dormitory?
L: Yes. .
M: The delight of living in the dormitory, young
people, and I think that's interesting_ In reading
about it, I think of you in a very spare room with not
many amenities. I've never been in your home but I
know it must be full of pictures and books _ . _ how do
you make the change? Do you miss the amenities? The
comforts?
L: Esther, you have a very penetrating mind. You know
all my secrets.
M: I've been reading about you. I've been wanting to
do this f or years .
L: This is one of my many eccentricities.
M: Maybe I shouldn't have brought this up?
L: By all means; I think it's a marvelous question.
Because it depicts one of my many dichotomies. We all
h ave them. For example, I'm very sensitive to
ambience. And I can be specific. I've talked
everywhere; I've talked in open fields, I've talked in
barns; I've talked in basements; I've talked in
penthouses; I've talked on boats. You name it. When
we were driving across country, Lucy Hamilton used to
~2:::
LEE
L: say to me, "Now there's an old shack you haven't
talked in." ··'
Sometimes the places are so dreary, I have to
concentrate consciously to overcome the atmosphere so
it doesn't pull me down. I just shift gears. So I am
sensitive to that . On the other hand, now comes the
contradic ton and this is a little difficult to
verbalize. I live primarily inside of my mind. My
thoughts and ideas do not pertain, primarily, to the
material, although I love beautiful things.
For example, I don't drink except - my
goodness, this is a total confession . _ . I don't
drink anything in the way of liquor or spirits except
very dry French champagne. And I do know the
difference between very fine French champagne and other
champagnes. And I prefer French champagne. (Laughter)
But I am not going to cry if I don't get it. I just
use that symbolically.
It is true that through the years _ and I
don't like the wor d collect because that has the
feeling of possession ___ I have surrounded myself
with hundreds of paintings ___ not my own __ . and
thous ands of books. I've enjoyed all of them. On the
other hand, Lucy Hamilton u s ed to say to me, "You know,
Amy, you're the happiest when you're in a hotel suite
all by yourself, just your portfolio and your work.
You can call downstairs and say, 'send me a cheese
sandwich and a glass of champagne." That ' s true.
1'')•/
~-~
L..EE
L: Because, oh, Es ther, what you have possesses you.
M: Indeed. ,1
L: It has t o be cleaned, oiled, insured, cared for
_ it poss esses you. I have two mater ialistic loves
... well, I'll just tell you eve rything _
weaknesses . I love beautiful automobiles.
M: Do you really?
L: Yes. And I have always been privileged to be able
to drive them. I just adore beautiful automobiles.
M: I can't believe it.
L: And the other tremendous weakness I have is that I
cannot tell you to what degree I enjoy staying in
luxurious hotels. And I got that from my late
grandmother with whom I traveled . Ma ma used to say,
"Never leave home unless you can be more comfort able
away from home than you are at home." I used to think,
"What a s illy thing to say." Now I realize how wise my
gt·andmother wa s .
But my room here at the college suits me
perfectly. I have ~ne room and a pr i vate bath. It's
s pare, except for the books and the manuscripts and
magazines and the work that I have up there. I can
clutter anything. If I had forty des ks , I'd have all
forty of them c lutter ed. I've limited myself for
thirty years to three file cabinets. I weakened and
bought a f ourth, and it's j ammed. But I'm not going to
get any more. I don't have anything that the students
don' t have . Because I fee l this way _ The s isters who
:m
L.EE
L: are so marvelous to me ... "We,re going to put
you in a suite." I sai·d, "No, I don't want a suite."
"Why not?" "Because no student has a suite." Now, if I
can,t live in the same manner the students live, I
should live elsewhere, because that wouldn't be fair.
They have been marvelous to me.
M: You made a statement in the paper lately that I
copied down and you said, "Young people today are
worried about nuclear war, brutality, cruelty and
violence." This interests me greatly because at The
Institute I am working almost entirely with young,
bright people. They all have degrees; they're all well
educated_ And I don 7 t think one of them gives a hoot
about nuclear holocausts; they don't read the papers.
This is curious to me. Is this because it's a college
atmosphere? You've got a high quality of students or
what? I don,t see this with the young people. I love
them; they're so bright. I just love working with
them. I don't think they go down below the surface.
L: My work takes me to numerous university and college
campuses across the United States, because I do a lot
of freelance lecturing _ .. call it speaking, I don't
like the word lecturing_ I try to communicate verbally_
It may well be, Esther, that the people I meet are the
committed students. When I speak, there is never any
reason for them to be there other than voluntarily, so
I may be seeing the cream of the crop.
M: That's what I wondered.
3.1
LEE
L: I don't want to give you the impression that I
think they're all committed_ By no means_ There is a
great variety of mentality and spiritual development
and qualities of being civilized and cultured among the
students_ I really believe there are enough of them
who are committed to save the planet ___ and the
number is growing_ J noticed that at the annual
national conferences of the Humane Society of the u_s_
there are more and more young people coming all the
time_
M: Are there?
L: Yes_ I'm glad you mention the part about degrees_
I've been chairman of the Board of Trustees of
Incarnate Word College for ten years_
M: That long!
L: I've been associated here fifty years_ Started as
a student fifty years ago_
M: Are you a Catholic?
L: No _ . _ we have three graduations a year and I
change what I have to say to the students at each
graduation _ it's a challenge to me. What I never
change _ . and I don't like to use that word "never,
because it implies the longest action in the English
language _ . _ I never change the following: I say to
all of them, "If you're not more humane now than when
you entered our doors, one of three things has
happened. We failed you; you failed us; or we failed
each other_" And also I tell them, "I don't care how
-;.•r)
V t::_
LEE
L: many earned degrees you have on the doctoral level
or where they came from if you~re not a loving person,
you are not an educated person definitively_"
H: Good.
L: And that~s exactly the way I feel about it.
H: Do you think the kids mull this over and - - - do
you get to them on that?
L: Some of them. Not all of them. I think it would
be preposterous on my part to think that everybody
agreed with me; or that everybody listened. It is wise
to do whatever one does on faith. I give every talk
with the faith that if the gods shine on me and I do my
best I shall reach somebody in that audience.
H: Even just one.
L: That~s right. You know, it has been said of Jesus
Christ, "Wherever one or two are gathered together."
H: I wonder about working with young people, is it the
boys more than girls or is it girl s ~ who are more
sens itive to situations today? All women hate wars
___ I can't imagine any woman not hating war! Do you
suppose there's a difference there?
L: Esther, I have to tell you that I believe in
individuality in the sense that the late Dr. Carl Jung
defined it as ___ individuation_ We are all
individuals; we are all s nowflakes_ I don't really
think you can divide it by sex_ I really don't, even
if Women's Lib stoned me to death_ I've always been a
liberated woman from the time I was born, even before
33
LEE
L: there was a movement_ It never occurred to me I
wasn 7 t a human being simply because I was a female_
And I have never permitted anybody to treat me other
than that_
M: Good for you_
L: On the other hand, I think it's very sad that
there's a fanatical bunch in that group that use bad
language and hate men_ That's sick! And they defeated
us_ But we'll win in the end_
But anyway, I think some women are sensitive and
receptive and care and some men are sensitive and
receptive and care_ And some don't_
M: It doesn't matter whether they're men or women_
L: No, I think there's a myth that women are more
sensitive_ I've often said if I have to face a tough
man or a tough woman, I'll take a tough man any time_
M: Really? Why?
L: Because I think, as a woman, I could appeal to
their sensibilities more than a woman to another woman_
M: That's interesting_ I've been in the business
world and it's very much easier to work with men_
L: Yes _ So much of my work is done with men_ For
example, for years I've been the only woman member of
the Executive Board of the San Antonio Blind
Association_ The only woman who's ever been President
of that group_ And I'm involved in it to carry on the
family tradition of my late grandmother, who
established scholarships in perpetuity for blind
~) l.j.
LEE
L: students to give thanks to God for her eyesight
being saved. ~
And I 7m the only woman serving on the Supreme
Court of Texas Grievance Oversight Committee. So I
work a lot with men.
H: They 7 re not resentful that you 7 re smarter than they
are?
L: (Laughter) Probably not because I,m not smarter.
H: Oh, yes you are_
L: There 1 s nothing to resent.
H: One of the things I have a great curiosity about
_ one of the things that was written about you
somewhere ___ said that you had Merton, St. Francis,
and the Genesist monk ___ a Genesee diary_ I don't
know that one. You must have more books than that that
are inspirational to you. Do you want to talk a little
bit about your books?
L: Yes. I have always been, a s I 1 ve said, a
passi onate, omnivorous reader. If you can read, I mean
read in the definitive sense ___ understand - - -
there,s nothing you can't teach yourself. Although I
have the greatest reverence for teachers . I owe my
life to them.
I 1 ve always been devoted to the writings of Norman
Cousins. Norman and I have been pers onal friends for
forty years_ That has nothing to do with my objective
opinion of his wr iting _ I think he is ___ and again
I hesitate to use s upe rlatives ___ so let me say,
:.::;~)
LEE
L: he's certainly one of the finest editorial writers
in the English language_ No one is clearer and more
succinct than Norman on an ab~solute consummate number
of subjects.
M: All those years of the Saturday Review! I stopped
taking it when he left.
L: Yes. He' s still doing the editorials and they're
still marvelous. I always read Norman Cousins and
re-read him.
I came to know the late Dr. Loren Eiseley, the
brilliant anthropologist from the University of
Pennsy lvani a. He occupied the Benjamin Franklin Chair
there. They established the Chair for him. I
recommended Loren Eiseley for the Joseph Wood Krutch
gold medal; the top medal given by The Humane Soceity
of the U.S. to someone whose life has been devoted to
humane ethics . He won the medal and that gave me the
privilege of presenting it to him in Washington. I
spent three days and three nigh ts with Loren and his
wi fe . They were three of the most glor ious days of my
life. I have r ead everything that's ever been printed
that he wrote . He was a combination scientist and
poet; he was the whole man.
M: Do you read e verything?
L: Everyt.hing . I think if you h aven't read his The
Unexpected Universe, you've missed one of the glorious
pieces of literat ure in the English language. I'm a
devotee of t he works of Willa Cather. I have re- read,
36
LEE
L: many times, her collected works. I love the prose and
poetry of Elinor Wylie. I'm a great reader of poetry_ I
attempt to write poetry_ Because poetry is the most
subtle challenge in literature; it's literature at its
apogee.
Oh, there's just so many! I've read everything
Paul Klee ever wrote_ I collect, so that I can read
and re- read, all the books about Paul Klee_ Books by
Werner Haftman, the great German critic, on Klee and his
works. I'm a devoted scholar, who studies Klee. Why,
because, he was a mystic. And I know if I could really
understand him, I would have the key that would unlock
the secret of the universe.
H: Really? For heaven's sake, that is so interesting_
L: There are jus t so many_ It' s just endless. Those
are jus t a few right off the t op of my head.
H: Any favorite philosophers?
L: Oh, yes. I'm a devotee of Pierre Tielhard de
Chardin. I'm a great reade r of Jacque Barzun, Provost
Fmeritus of Columbia University_ He i s a personal
friend of mine . I read all the books that Ruth Nanda
Ans hen edits such as the Credo seri es . I've just
finshed r eading Jonas Salk's new book, called the
Anatomy of Reality . It's a brilliant, incisive book.
I've just finish ed reading Ray Kass' book on Harris
Graves and the Inner Eye_ I'm a student of Morris
Graves because Graves is a mystical painter . It's a
brilliant a nalysis of his work.
:.:) ~/'
LEE
M: Is painting your first love as far as your creative
life goes? Would you r.ather paint or write or
L: If I could have my top wish, oh, I would
unequivocally choose music.
talent in it at all, Esther.
instruments and the voice.
Unfortunately, I have no
I studied five
Excuse, four instruments;
well, the voice is an instrument. I studied E-flat
alto saxaphone, and played it well enough to transpose
the cello parts. I studied the drums and the piano and
the banjo and the voice. And have absolutely no
performing talent, but I am a keen listener.
Now I want to tell you what I want to do except
you've got to promise me you're going to believe me.
I'm never got to get to do it unless I hire a hall and
pay for the band. I want to sing with a swing band.
I'd leave everything I'm doing tonight _ except for
humane ethics ___ I would leave everything else I'm
doing if I could sing with a swing band. That i s the
rhythm of my heartbeat and my metabolic rate and my
inhalation.
M: Swing band. I go to the New Orleans jazz.
L: I know. But s wing i s my metier.
M: I think that is delightful.
L: I said to Norman recently, ''Norman, laughter may be
your therapy but if I get really sick, I'm filling my
room with swing band music. Les Brown, Glenn Miller,
the Dorseys , Sinatra, Crosby _
M: I know exactly what you're saying_ Did he laugh at
:);;::
LEE
~s ·~
M: you?
L: No. • .. '1
M: He understands then.
L: He just thought it was a different form of therapy_
Let me tell you something ___ I don~t know this
gentleman~ but he~s very well known __ - Mr. Harold
Farb in Houston, who is sixty years old. He is one of
the most affluent people in the state . He has bought a
nightclub and he's singing in it, because all his life
he~s wanted to. If I thought he wouldn't misunderstand
it, I'd send him a dozen red roses . And say~ "Bully
for you. I salute you!"
M: He was able to indulge himself_
L: He did it! He's doing it right now.
M: I~m just wondering about this. I've been thinking
about this a good deal_ There are so many things I
want to do and I know I'm not going to go to get to do
t.hem _ like spend a year in London! Do you suppose
we all have to go to our next lives with unfulfilled
things so we can do them in the next life?
L: Yes, I do. You know, I believe in reincarnation,
don't you? I believe in the principle of
met.empsychosis _
M: I don't know that word_
L: It. means "Come back many times." I • m t .hinking of
mete~ which is measure_ Let me tell you my lifelong
principle. Whenever I~m absolutely sure, that~s when I
look it up and I'm always absolutely wrong_
LEE
M: I shock some of my friends for believing in
reincarnation_ ·'
L: You realize~ Esther, that for the first three
hundred years of Christian history, all Christians
believed in reincarnation_
M: I know that, but
L: It was not until the time of Theodora, a dreadful
dragon lady, who married Justinian, that Christians
dropped the concept of reincarnation_ She wanted to
rule the world and she put popes on and off thrones as
though they were ants, a-n-t-s_ She wanted to be sure
she possessed your soul so that you wouldn't get away
from her after you left the temporal order so she ruled
out reincarnation_ She had it stricken from the church
records_
M: The argument I have always used, I was not sure of
which council _ _ _ but I have in the back of my
mind that there had been a council at one point where
the Catholic fathers got together and said, "Hey, if
our people think we're going to have another chance,
they're not going to try as hard in this life_ So
let's take reincarnation, which we have inherited in
the Chris tian religion, let's take it out_ " Do you
remember that?
L: I'm not a scholar of history per se, of church
history, but I think, it has been care fully verified,
that it was during the Theodora- Justinian period that
reincarnation was banned, and the church has never
40
LEE
L: reviewed the matter_
The fact that most people living today believe in
reincarnaton doesn't make it true. I'm simply saying
that those of us in the western world lose track of the
fact that we're the minority_ By far the majority of
people, the Hindus, the Buddhists, all believe in
reincarnation.
M: Of course they do.
L: I'm just saying that it is a concept that is
recognized and practiced widely_
M: In other words, we aren't just crazy people.
L: The concept is extant and operative.
M: I hate to admit this but I have not read any of the
things you have written. You have written two or three
books. One of them sounds awfully interesting __ _
Hobby Horses. But you've also got Remember Pearl
Harbor ___ that's interesting, too.
L: Hobby Hors es i s a book about some experiences
showing American- bred saddle horses with special
emphasis on the superb champion, Midnight Star_
Remember Pearl Harbor is a satirical poem. What I did
was to take the well-known historical aphorisms about
war a nd write a sort of satire about war.
M: Did you watch the TV "Winds of War?"
L: No.
M: I did. I don't like to wa t ch anything about war_
I did watch that one. I thought it was well done. The
Pearl Harbor thing was very well done.
t.l.J.
LEE
L: I called it Remember Pearl Harbor, beca use I wrote
it shortly after Pearl .Harbor was bombed. It's a rather
long epic poem that's a satire about war. It's my
Guernica ___ I am not comparing myself to the
masterpiece, but it's my attempt in words to point to
the horrors of war.
M: Are your books available in the library?
L: Yes, they are. They're out of print, but they are
available in libraries. I've also done some chapters
for books. I have a chapter in the book called
On the Fifth Day_ The title comes from the biblical
reference to the day the animals are supposed to have
been created. And that book is still available. I'll
tell you what that is, it's a collection, an anthology,
of philosophic essays on the subject of humane ethics.
It was published at the request of the Humane Society of
the United States.
M: You said you were Frenc h on your mother's side.
How do you feel about food--eating, things like that?
Did the Frenc h bestow you with a gourme t _ _ _ a
bee fin?
L: Again, I'm a great contradiction . No. In a way, I
have rather a simple appetite. Some o f my fri ends
would die laughing if they heard me say that. I'm what
i s known in the trade a s a very picky eater. A bad
thing to be. Lucy Hamilton used to s a y, "I wouldn't
cook for you for $100,000. a day tax-free, you're such
a picky eater. And that proves you've never been
'+~'
LEE
L: really hungry_" It's true. I only like certain
things. I can live forever on very simple foods. That
is because, to be frank about it, I do not wish to
spend time marketing, cooking, washing dishes. Because
that time could go to something that interests me and
challenges me more.
On the other ha.nd, I certainly am capable of
enjoying the ambience, the service and the quality of
food in very fine restaurants. But I do not consider
myself a gourmet.
M: That's just a silly queston, but we are paralleling
so much, I wondered.
L: Also, Esther, I have to watch my weight on account
of my back. I used to show horses and had a number of
injuries. I stay thin not because of vanity but
because my body simply won't carry a lot of weight. I
have rather a propensity for sweets, but I don't
indulge myself.
M: You mentioned somewhere in an interview you have
about living here that the kids would invite you to
their things and you mentioned brownies, fudge,
popcorn.
L: (laughter) If I ate everything they cooked, I'd
weigh 200 pounds. Let me tell you a concern I have, a
serious concern. The obesity among our society,
especially among the young people of today, is
shocking_ It's terribly unhealthy and it also shows a
lack of self realization, of self dignity, of feeling
4:::>
LEE
L: good about yourself_
M: My daughter lives .~ in Madrid and she says that many
Spanish people are coming to the States for vacations_
They come back saying the women are so fat . After she
said that, I began to watch and it's certainly true_
L: It worries me particularly among the young people.
I've never seen so many fat young people.
M: They're eating hamburgers and french fried
potatoes!
L: One of the great tragedies of our society is that
we're turning out thousands of doctors with degrees and
licenses to practice who don't know one continental
thing about nutrition_
M: That has worried me. They are now starting to
demand nutrition courses.
L: To know the source of one's energy and the proper
way to fuel the body is a core part of one basic
discipline_
M: They're now talking about curing terrible diseases
with proper food_
L: Certainly_ Dr_ Roger Williams, the great
physiologist at the University of Texas, at 88, last
year put out his tenth book. This one is devoted to
nutrition and alcoholism. He's helped people with that
problem_ He thinks it's a nutritional imbalance_
Again, I don't want to be fanatical about
anything, but to coin a phrase, extremes are scarcely
to be applauded. But I think to neglect yourself in
44
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L: that way is deplorable. Host doctors don't tell
you anything about vitamins . They say, "Well, if you
eat properly, you don't need vitamins . " Vitamins don't
substitute for food but they're a marvelous supplement
to it.
H: Let me ask you this: you live here at the
Incarnate Word College, you're Chairman of the Board of
Trustees, do you teach?
L: I don't teach regularly, Esther, as long as I am in
the Chair, because we don't wear two hats
simultaneously. If the teachers (You note that I don't
say professors .. . Dr. Roehl used to say the
difference between a teacher and a professor is a
professor never gets beyond describing and a teacher
defines .) ask me to come and give a class , I do it.
But I do about a hundred freelance lectures a season
all over the country_
H: What do you do here? Are you an a dvisor, for
instance, for the children?
L: What I do here i s serve as Chairman of the Board_
There' s much protocol.
M: What does that involve?
L : We have visitors ; I make calls to the foundations
with our marvelous Pres ident, Sister Ma rgare t Patrice
Slattery_
M: She must be a go-gette r_
L: Well, s he ' s just a top notch educator and
administrator _ She ' s been an ins pirat i on to me. We
45
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L: worked together for ten years as a team, and she's
stretched me beyond myself.
I give talks about Incarnate Word whenever
opportunities arise and I speak at theater performances
to thank our benefactors. I always talk at all the
graduations. The Board i s divided into four major
committees, comparab~e to the four sections of the
College, and the committees meet preceeding the Board
meeting. As ex-officio, I meet with a ll the committees
so that when I chair, I'm prepared. Somebody said,
''How much time do you have to give to being a trustee?"
Just as much as you want to give.
H: They don't demand.
L: Well, there are duties; I certainly have to be here
to c hair, but I always try to make mys elf available.
H: But you are free to move around and go around the
coun try_
L: Oh, yes. The res ponsibility of a trustee i s to set
policy_ Not many trustees understand this. You don't
run around and tell the administration how to run the
s hip_ You just see to it that they're running the ship
in relation to policies.
H: I took some cours e s here under the most adorable
Sister, J e an Marie . It was my first contact with
education in a Catholic ins titution; it was my first
con tact with a Sis ter. I adore that woman. We keep in
touch with each other. What a lovely f eel ing there was
here, when I was taking those cours es from her and
46
LEE
L: another one. The gentleness, the non-judgmental
attitude that she had_ •• Is that typical all through the
institution?
L: Yes. I'm glad you mentioned that, because the
Sisters won't talk about it; it would be a violation of
their basic humility_ They have built an ambience in
this institution thr~ugh their devotion and their
service and their dedication. And it is an ambience of
love and you feel it. You cannot be here anytime at
all as a student or faculty member without feeling that
we are all a large family here. That's why I love it.
The Sisters of Charity of the Incarnate Word have been
a part of the core of my life ever since I was born in
their hospital. They are one of the great gifts and
graces of my life.
H: Have they ever put any pressure on you to become a
Cat.holic?
L: Never. I will us e the "neve r" this time, advisedly
and acc urately. Never.
H: After Siste r J e an Marie and I had become friends ,
s he turned to me one day and s aid, "Esther, are you a
Catholic?" She jus t was c urious . And we went right on
talking_
L: We always s ay that anyone who has studied at
Incarnate Word cannot be all bad, so I'm glad to know
that you've been saved in that way_ (Laughter)
M: As ide from what I learne d, to come into this
ambience . . . I hate to u s e that overworked word
47
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L: That's why I don't want to leave here .
M: I can see how you feel. It would be very
comfortable, wouldn't it?
L: Absolutely_ To be surrounded in an atmosphere of
love; that's the greatest gift in the world. There's
no compensation beyond that.
M: What are you doi~g about your beloved dogs? You
can't have them here.
L: They're visiting_ That's the one drawback. They
can't stay with me on the property here. They're
visiting darling friends of mine. The dogs are
divinely happy_ They have a doggy door; they go in and
out of this marvelous yard at will; they have people
and dog friends all day_ They just look better than
ever. I'm grieving myself to death, and they're just
in heaven. I don't feel whole; I've got to have them
with me.
M: How lucky you are to have found that kind of
friends.
L: I have beautiful friends. God has graced me with
the kindest and most wonderful friends in th world.
H: You've earned it.
L: Oh, you're so kind.
H: Yes, you have_
Have you anything else you want on this tape for
posterity? Fifty years from now?
L: All right, just let me say one thing_ At my age I
can use the word ''love" unhesitatingly, because I'm too
i~::::
LEE
1~. ' I
L: old to get into any serious t rouble. I've always
us ed it unhesitatingly_ When it's all said and done , I
cannot come up with any other conclusion at the tender
age of sixty-nine, based on all my experiental
background in all the fields I've worked in, than the
fact that the world is divided primarily between two
kinds of human beings_ Those who are capable of loving
"··
and those who are not. Those who are capable of loving
are going to be the ones to save the planet and human
life on it; to see that human life continues to develop
toward spirituality_ It's also their responsibility to
try to persuade those who don't know how to love of the
necessity to love and to try to help them l earn to do
i t _ There isn't any other game beyond that.
M: Do you think that those who can l ove trying to
persuade those who can't _ what kind of success are
they going to have? There are people who are just dead
in t .he middle_
L: That's true, but you have to try_ I had a great
friend, the late Gina Cerminara, a brilliant
s emanticist. We worked together in humane ethics. A
long t.ime ago I said to het·, "Gina, I'm in deep
trouble, and I've got to have some help_ If I don't
master my emotions, I'm going to f ail in the most
impor-tant area i n my life." She said, "What is it?"
"How do you learn not to hate people who are cr-uel,
brutal and violent?"
She said, "Oh , Amy, let me tell you something
LEE
L: that's helped me. In our life we're so clued in to
I.Q., especially those of us in academia." However., we
neglect H.Q. I said. "I don't know what you're talking
about. What is H.Q.?" She said, "Heart Quotient."
She said, "You have to understand, Amy, that many of us
are here in different levels of development not only of
I.Q. but also of H.Q."
M: That"s very interesting.
L: And we must try, those of us who have a high
development of the heart, to help those who do not,
just as we try to help others raise their level of I.Q ~
I once did a nine-foot neon sculpture, which I
called, "Soul Sign.," because I thought if you could
sell shoes and ice boxes with neon signs, why not sell
principles of the soul? And I have it both in words
and images on the neon_ Heart Quotient plus
Intelligence Quotient equals Soul. And the acronym i s
tl ~ ~. His , which i s the symbol of the creative spirit_
M: Are you going to do it by example?
L: I say it with total reverence, God knows I'm
trying_ I fail a lot, but I'm trying_
M: Are you doing it by yourself, being an example so
that people can profit by your example, or do you have
to take stronger meas ures? Say you're facing somebody
who"s got a wall _ _ _ how are you going to get by that
wall?
L: Es ther, Loren Eis eley and I were talking and he
said, "Amy. don't get. discouraged_ You know we're
50
LEE
L: still in the cave. And he said~ "We homo sapiens
have only been on this planet just a brief moment, like
the wink of an eye." And, he said, "We've turned toward
the mouth of the cave now, and moving toward the light."
And I said, "Yes, and I'll tell you something,
Loren, we're never going to fight our way out of that
cave; we're never going to threaten our way out; we~re -
never going to shoot our way out; we're going to waltz
and sing and dance our way out of the cave." That is a
way of saying we are going to burnish our spirit on the
arts.
M: On the arts?
L: I do not think you can win, in the real Quaker sense
of that word, that is, achieve spiritual success other
than by persuasion_ And persuas ion comes from example_
M: Is it going to be the gentler arts that are going
to do it?
L: Partially_ And the gentler people.
M: And that~s going to start way down with the young_
L: The fine and lively arts, combined with an
understanding of science as a foundation c omprise the
necessary educational background. We have to have the
two toge ther. We mus t not wors hip science separately,
nor art separately. It's people who unders t and that,
the gentle people, who have the ability and the
respons ibility to try to persuade the others. They
won't win them all, of cours e, but we have to try.
M: In other words , you have to achieve a balance.
!:>1
l._EE
s:;~
L: Yes, I have faith in people. I believe, with the
Quakers, that there is somewhat of a light of God in
every human being_ I made a pun about Mr. Watts,
Secretary of the Interior ___ I said, "The trouble
with him is there may be some of the light of God in
him but in my opinion, the "wattage" is low."
M: (Laughter) Very good!
L: Quakers believe that this light burns in us all,
and I believe it to be true. It has to be rekindled by
love, and people feel that love in you and respond to
it. That's the best hope you have_ Meeting harshness
with harshness just reinforces harshness. That's why no
one ever wins a war, Esther.
M: Why can't people learn that? War won't solve
anything_
L: No one wins a war; you just reinforce the hatred.
I'll tell you one thing ___ now you've hit the
real bottom line _ The greatest irony is the
cosmic irony_ Through our technological ability we' ve
made it possible to end life on this planet_ And we
can no longer s hoot it out; we 've got to s hout it out.
We're going to have to sit d own with mutual respect, if
not mutual admiration, and discuss it.
M: Abs olutely_
L: Whatever it is, nobody i s going to walk away from a
nuclear wa r. Anybody t e lls you that is ridiculous.
So now it' s love or non-love. Choose.
M: But that' s ha rd_
LEE
L: And if enough of us don't choose love, we're not
going to make it_ So people say to me, "Why do you
bothe r trying?" What are the other alternatives? I'm
going to go down trying_
M: There are a lot of people who don't understand what
you mean by love. You've got to get some qualifying
adjectives in there.
L: You are correct. You've got to have caring,
concern, unselfishness.
H: All those things_
L: When I say love, I'm talking about serving other
than oneself.
H: Exactly_
L: To put the commonweal above and beyond oneself.
M: Absolutely_ And that is one of the things you're
doing, your commitment to the community_
L: You're kind. I 'm glad you said we have to qualify
it. We do. Because the word has been so mis used. We
now just associate it with sex.
M: I have a friend who i s afraid to use the word love,
it has been used so badly_
L: I know_ But you see, again, I don't want to be
misunderstood. The physical aspect of life i s
important; it plays a role in its proper place but it's
not the be-all, end-all . I've never been a Freudian;
I'm a Jungian. You have to see science and art
together, the whole society_ Dr. Roehl used to define
it in this equation: "If you want to build jus t
r.- ···:-
~),:)
LEE
~:. ,::1.
L: civilization, that has to do with the material; it has to do
with facts; it has to do with science. That's fine but it's not
enough_ So you have to have more than civilization; you have to
have culture, which is composed of the arts and the Emanating
humanities. It's only when you add civilization and culture
together that you have the whole society_ And nothing less than
the whole society will do."
M: That's very good to put civilization and cultur8 together; I
1 ike that.
L: The two are vital! It's not just science alone, and it's not
just at·t alone.
M: That's another way of saying it.
L: Economics plus politics equal civilization. Art plus the
emanating humanities equal culture. It's only when you add
civilization and culture together that you get the whole society
for the whole human being_ The whole human being is a Joving
human being_ When we talk about love, that's what we'r8 talking
about .
M: When you're talking about love, you're not talking about any
religion _ _ _ Christian religion?
L: No. No dogma. The spiritual principle of concern, of caring,
and unselfishness , of serving_
t·l: Casting off the chains of dogma _ _ _ that.' s a pt·oblem with
some people , too.
L. : Well, we' ve covered the waterfront, haven't we?
M: Not on the tape , but thank you e ver so much for a grand
interview_
END OF INTERVIEW