THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Changes in San Antonio last 25-30 years
INTERVIEW WITH: Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 11 July 1995
PLACE: Sterlin Holmesly's office
INTERVIEWER: Sterlin Holmesly
TAPE I, Side 1
H: Interview with Cliff Morton in my office, July 11, 1995. This is Sterlin Holmesly.
M: Okay. My name is Cliff Morton and I've been in San Antonio since 1956.
H: You came here because of the Air Force?
M: I came back from pilot training in June of 1956, and instructed at Lackland Air Force Base until December of 1957.
H: And in your business career here you've been a builder/developer?
M: The reason I chose San Antonio as an assignment was because they had it was the only one of ninety some-odd assignments that were available to our class that had a night law school.
H: Okay ... so you ...
M: And so I came here, I never wanted to practice law, but I came here to go to law school at night and instruct in the daytime, and also got involved in the automobile business while I was in the Air Force which would be totally M:prohibited today. But I did that until - and went to law school. After I separated from the service in '57 until September of '59, and I've been involved in real estate development, home building, some apartments, a little commercial and the health care field. I have been involved in developing what, at one time, was the largest privately held nursing home company in the state of Texas.
H: Okay. So you came here in '56? You were here for HemisFair in '68?
M: Yes.
H: And the city before HemisFair was one thing, and then the Fair seemed to change San Antonio in a number of ways.
M: I think that HemisFair was the right term is it was a turning point, if you would, for this city. And it, you know, to me, I personally look at HemisFair, if you would, as also, of course, ..... in time to, what I would call the first the emergence of the first group of new entrepreneurs. Let's say prior to World War II, and I was not here then, but this town was controlled by people who, generally speaking, had been here for a long, long time.
H: ...by the old money.
M: The old money. And after the War you had entrepreneurs that developed, such as Ray Ellison in home building, Quincy Lee, Jimmy Burke, Edgar Von Shield, McCreless, and we could go on and on with a lot of different people. And it wasn't just in the home building field, but in other fields. This was the first group of entrpreneurs that, again, to M:Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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influence the development of the city.
H: And with HemisFair there was - there were some new people.
M: There were new people. And you had that, and by the same token, at that time, you had old companies who were owned locally, that were still here: the Joskes, the Frosts, the local banks. That of course all began to change as we started to bring in corporations that were publically owned outside the city. And so HemisFair, of course, had brought us - to me San Antonio has always had an identity question as to what it wanted to be. If memory serves me correctly, until the census of 1940, San Antonio was the largest city in the state of Texas. And in the '40 census they dropped to number two. Certainly older than Houston or Dallas, but always seemed to try to aspire to perhaps be that way and yet there was also a conflict that said no, we want to leave things like they have been. And HemisFair is, to me, a turning point, if you would, that started to change all that. And of course, it's - the residue of HemisFair, or the legacy of HemisFair with the physical infra-structure and improvements that were left there, you know was the foundation for now what is one of our largest industries, and that is conventions and tourism, hospitality.
H: That was the Convention Center. It took a while to decide what to do with the rest of the left-overs.Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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M: What to do with it and you know, that was one of the M: key arguments when I got on the council was, okay, we have all this land downtown, what are we going to do with it?
H: Yeah. What was the first year you were elected to city council?
M: I was a one-term council person from '73 to 1975.
H: Okay. And what do you think HemisFair changed the city's attitude about itself to any extent?
M: I think it started to change its attitude about itself, maybe that we can be different from the these other cities and still be - and still have a good self-esteem. There are times when I sometimes wonder about our self-esteem. Because we tend to want to - people tend to want to make financial or economic comparisons to Houston or Dallas, and I think there are other ways to compare a city other than statistics.
H: One question is, would you want to live there?
M: That would be the first question that I would ask. And my personal impression, from many of the friends that I know, I think that they perhaps have made have career sacrifices, monetarily, coming here, perhaps reluctantly, never having been here before, fell in love with the city and are willing to not accept promotions, make financial - put financial ceilings on themselves, if you would, just Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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because they like to live in this city.
H: As a builder, and as a developer, you've been through H: boom-and-bust cycles since HemisFair. I remember at one point San Antonio seemed vastly over built on strip-centers and housing and if I recall correctly, at least part of that was attributable to tax laws. That people built for tax write-offs rather than for the market, is that accurate?
M: I think you could say that. To me there were a number of things that happened during the period of the late '70s and '80s. First, you start with people who are in the development business, normally they are risk takers, they're entrepreneurs. Many think that just because they can build one type of product, a house, and are expert at that, that they could probably transfer that expertise over to building an office building. I had that experience in Dallas in late - mid to late '80s. That was a very costly experience for me, to find out how little I knew about something that was construction but didn't have any of the expertises that I needed. But, it's true, that you had lenders, who under laws that were changed in the late '70s ... early '80s, in order to distort the financial condition in a more positive way, created an environment to where they were pushing money out the front door to people who were not qualified to develop projects
H: And this was the savings and loans?Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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M: This was the savings and loans.
H: Congress changed the law to allow them to get into other areas.
M: Yes. You became a partner with them and if you were warm and said you were a developer, there were some that said, "Okay, we will loan you this money, and we'll loan you enough money to where you not only don't have to put any equity in the project, we're going to charge you four points on the front end, we're going to book that as profit,"And so as a result they were overstating their financial position and then after the Congress found out what was happening there they did a 180 degree turn, and if you would, shut the supply of money off, and aggravated the situation even more drastically. And that was a catastrophe .......
H: And there was some land-flipping going on in those days too.
M: There were ....
H: Inflating the prices.
M: There was, and again, that was fueled by the easy access to money from some savings and loans by two individuals who were not qualified to take that money and use it properly. There was such an optimism that I - about absorption rates that reality was completely lost in the process. You still see it today in the empty strip-centers here in San Antonio. There are centers that should never beCliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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built, some were never occupied, that were torn down. As far as the housing stock is concerned, it's in pretty good shape today. I think that the - that housing, new home starts for 1995, will be under 1994 by somewhere around M: twenty percent. Our recovery from the recession, or depression, of the '80s, depending on what business and perspective that you had, I consider the vitality of our recovery anemic by comparison to Austin or Houston or San Antonio. We had some job growth, but the type of jobs, so many of the types of jobs that we're attracting today, those people are - cannot,even the middle income families cannot qualify to buy a house.
H: One complaint I hear, as a downtowner is that there's no interest in renovating or building housing in or near downtown, inside the Loop. All the development is out to the North and Northwest. And there were complaints that the banks had red-lined some areas and people couldn't get money, either for small businesses or for - to renovate housing, or even to buy housing, used housing. What's your assessment of that complaint?
M: I think that might have been a truer statement a few years ago than it is today. I think there's a lot of scrutiny on that. I won't tell you that it still doesn't exist. I know as far as we're concerned, we are actively involved in a - what is a relatively small project - it's Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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only twelve or fifteen homes on lots that have been re-subdivided, that were twenty-five and consolidated into fifty or seventy-five foot lots. And in the near West side we're looking at another project that would be somewhere in excess of fifty homes. In each case there is some type of a M: subsidy that is involved for that ultimate buyer of that house. But it's interesting to see the pride that people have in those communities. Many of the people that we're looking at as prospective owners or buyers, are people who have been raised in that particular community.
H: Uh-huh. Stay in the neighborhood.
M: Stay in the neighborhood. And so, to me to have a healthy city I think there needs to be all types of housing in the downtown area or near downtown. Let's get outside the two walls that we have with the expressways to the east and the west.
H: Right.
M: And so this is not something that we're doing as a charitable project. On the other hand it's something, from my own personal standpoint, I enjoy doing.
H: Since HemisFair a lot of things have changed in San Antonio: education, culture. We have discussed the economics of the town have changed, the convention visitor's bureau. One thing that hasn't changed since I came here in 1961, you came here in 1956: San Antonio still does not haveCliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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any supplemental water.
M: That's right.
H: And you have how long were you chairman of the San Antonio Water System? You still are.
M: I've been chairman of the San Antonio Water System since May of 1992.
H: And as a councilperson and as a developer, you're aware of water.
M: It was an issue - big issue in the '73 - '75 time frame was the - and it's similar to water in that we had only one supplier of gas.
H: Uh-huh.
M And we were totally dependent on natural gas to fire our generating plants and the reserves that were supposed to be there to back up that sole contract were not there. And so, this was during the middle of the energy crisis and it's an interesting time if you want to look back at it because in San Antonio it was the end of the ability of a one-wage earner in the household to buy a starter house. And it flipped in a two-year period. We went from - and at that time we were building primarily starter houses and in '73, eighty percent of our buyers were one income households. Two years later, eighty percent were two income households, in that short of a period of time. And you had your electric rates that went through the roof ...Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: Uh-huh. Driven by the natural gas .......
M: ... and the start of run-away inflation. And you put the combination of both of those together, which in effect if you would, total cost of home-ownership, and it took the one income family out of the starter house business. And that has not been corrected today.
H: Back to water. I was in San Angelo last summer. That H: relatively small town of ninety thousand, has five reservoirs. San Antonio has been unable to build even a lake as a back-up. What is your analysis of San Antonian's, voter's, or other people's problems of getting back-up water?
M: Well, let's start with San Angelo.
H: Well, they hauled water in the Dust-Bowl for one thing.
M: In the drought of the '50s they experienced having to bring water in in railroad tank cars. We have never experienced that kind of shortage here in San Antonio. There is a big difference between people's ability to go out and look at the level of a reservoir, or fly over several reservoirs, as opposed to their ability to understand that there are limitations on a natural resource, where you're depending on ground water solely for the largest city in the United States that depends solely on ground water. And when you have citizens here in town that would have the ability to convince a majority of the populace, that voted on two Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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different occasions, that this is an inexhaustible resource just because you can't see how much is in it. It's not a question of how much is in it, it's how much you can take out of it, and still respect the historical rights of others who also have a need for this resource. But we have the problem, number one, you can't see it, number two, the perception that we were here first, we're the biggest, and if we - and where we're located over the acquifer, M: theoretically we could pump everyone else dry. And - but the attitude I think, historically has been with some, is we'll take all we want and whatever we have left over for the people to the East and West, that's what you'll get.
H: Which has brought a lot of enmity from the farmers from the west and recreational users to the east, New Braunfels and in San Marcos.
M: That's correct. And also the industrial users downstream and the bays and estuaries. What we have to do, I think, is to look at this, first, as, yes, we do have a very unique natural resource. I have no question that it has more capacity to hold water than all the surface water reservoirs in the state of Texas combined. But you cannot rely on a given quantity of rainfall over a certain period of time. If you look back over the past twenty years, versus the past two hundred years, we're in a very wet period relative to where we have been. And what we need toCliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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do is, and I hope that the legislation that has recently been passed, will establish a historical right to our being able to pump a quantifiable quantity of water out of the Edwards, that will address abuses such as the catfish farm, which has the capacity to pump roughly a third of what the San Antonio water system pumps on a daily basis, with no violation of the law, with the exception of, he did not have a permit to drain water off of his property into the Medina River. And so hopefully, we plug those gaps, and now if you M: would, establish the bench mark and say from here we have to: number one, conserve water, that's your cheapest source of additional water; number two, we've created a water market to where we can lease water rights, on either a short or long term basis, drought management basis for one year if we wanted to. Or up to a long-term. To the West we could buy land that has irrigation and pumping rights that could be established with this. Inter-basin transfers, which we have a letter of intent on with a deadline of having it completed by the end of December of '95. Water re-use; we are now pumping, or discharging, approximately fifty thousand acre feet per day, which no one downstream has claims on, that goes into the Gulf of Mexico. It could certainly be put to a better and higher use.
H: Uh-huh. Golf courses and ... parks ...
M: Golf courses ... cemeteries ... industrial parks ... Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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recreational parks. I think that we might well see a day when we have dual lanes where even landscaping for single family lots might be irrigated with what's called "gray water."
H: There've been two elections on the Applewhite Reservoir; both of them were defeated.
M: Yes.
H: Which would have given a small, but still a supplemental, water supply to the city. The key word that kept coming up was trust. Let's go back to, let's say the H: '60s, when there seemed to be enough trust to build HemisFair, participate in HemisFair.
M: Uh-huh.
H: And now in those two Applewhite elections, the leadership of the community apparently could not convince the majority of the voters to trust them and say we need this and we ought to do it. You've been an elected official, you've been head of the water systems, can you ... do you have any feeling for where the trust went?
M: I would start by saying I think there has been a decline in trust in government at all levels, starting at the national level. It is a great concern to me when I look at our city. No, it's not perfect as far as the form of government. State government, same way. My first experience in working with the leadership in state Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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government was the Senate Bill 1477, passed in 1993. I was very pleasantly surprised with the quality of the leadership that I worked with, both elected and staff. I was really amazed at the quality of the people that they had there. You know, you look back at San Antonio, prior to the change in the city charter, what was it ... 1950? As I understand it, we had a very corrupt government here, and we had a group of reformers that came in and said, "We're going to do things a different way. And they did. And apparently they developed a trust in the community that lasted for a long time. Frankly, on this particular subject, I think M: that one of the problems that we had was: the opposition was not limited by telling the truth. There was a double standard among some members of the press as far as a mis-statement that might just be an oversight or one-tenth of one percent off, that the proponents would make, that we would be challenged on and yet on the other hand the opposition seemed - whatever they said ... seemed not to be challenged by some of the media. Not all of it. And I - you know, if I were looking back and saying, what's my disappointment? My biggest disappointment during my tenure at SAWS, I would have to say the defeat of Applewhite because my motivation in this job is primarily to provide a long-term water supply for the needs of this community. That's number one. And I think that we lost the best and Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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cheapest opportunity that we'll ever have. Forty million dollars that has already been invested by this community in that project is not even a minimum down payment on what it will ultimately cost this community as we start to develop alternate resources.
H: Uh-huh. That includes bringing water from other basins?
M: That is correct.
H: Which entails pipelines, treatment plants, ...
M: You're talking about a treatment plant. You're looking at a minimum of one where you need - any size at all - of more than a hundred million dollars just in that alone.
H: Wow.
M: And what we had with Applewhite, is we had a commodity to trade with the people that we might want to be buying water from. We're in an entirely different bargaining position when we say, we want to buy water from you, but we don't have any water to trade you. So they have to factor in as a component into their cost, what is it going to cost them when they no longer have excess water because of growth in their basin? They have to factor in what it's going to cost to develop reservoirs to add to their water supply sometime in the next century, into the cost of the water that we're going to be buying today. And that is not going to be a happy day when they see that number. Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: Well, what about the effects of the Endangered Species Acts suit. Even with the new Edwards Aquifer Authority that's not going to go away is it? To keep the spring flow enough to maintain the endangered species in the Comal and San Marcos springs?
M: Okay. I would answer the question this way: first, there is a different attitude at the federal level on whether any changes will be made in the endangered species act today, versus prior to the election of this fall of '94. I think it is possible that there will be some changes made in the endangered species act if - but I do not believe that the pumpers can think that they can get the kind of relief from the Endangered Species Act that will ignore the M: requirements for spring flow at some level, or the requirements of the industrial complex in Victoria and other users downstream, and also support for bays and estuaries. I'm not saying that it will be as stringent as the Endangered Species Act is being interpreted by the judge, but I think those days of being able to say we can act with impunity and independence, and complete disregard of our neighbors, are over, with or without the Endangered Species Act.
H: One thing that has puzzled me, as a city dweller, is that I pay for being hooked up to the water systemf. I pay my usage bills. Farmers in the West drill a well and Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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they're not accountable for how much they use. And of course, I don't want to be the first guy to go in and put a meter, over in Uvalde County ...
M: (laughter)
H: ... I think that would be a hazardous mission; but it doesn't seem equitable that they can have unlimited access to water.
M: That's ...
H: The more I use, the higher the rates.
M: That ... I think that is correct. If you ... if you go back and look at history I think that the increase in irrigation in Medina and Uvalde County ...
END OF TAPE I, Side 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
TAPE I, Side 2
M: ... depending on whose numbers you want to believe, and because there are very few meters on any of those irrigation wells, those two counties' irrigation pumping rates are roughly equal to all of the pumping in Bexar County. And we're talking about a population in Bexar County of something like 1.4 million today, and you're looking at less than four or five hundred families who own all of the irrigation operations in Medina and Uvalde County. No, they do not break the law, but what we're looking at is how far Texas law is behind laws in other Southwestern states, who are - who have historically been shorter on water than we Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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have.
H: And there the irrigation, of course, grows crops that would not grow dry-land.
M: That's correct. The thing that I think we have to look at; first, I would like to try to work with the citizens to the East and West on this basis. I was raised on an irrigation farm in West Texas. We had high winds. We had low humidity. We had more evaporation than you do with the high humidities that we have here. Those people, with less rainfall on the average than they have in either Uvalde or Medina County, and with these high winds, are able to produce more grain per acre, with less water, than the people in Uvalde and Medina County can. And one of the reasons for that is, because they're in an aquifer that has a declining level in it, they are having to go deeper and M: deeper, which costs them more and more, and as a result of putting a higher value on water they've learned how to use it better. And this technology is not rocket science, and what I think we will see happen is this: I think we'll see a combination of loans and grants to help those people who are really serious about farming in Medina and Uvalde County to where they can raise crops in the same or greater quantities than than have historically per day, with less water, sell part or lease part of their land, they're going to be guaranteed two acre feet per acre for whatever, Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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historically, they've irrigated, and they get to pick the highest year. I haven't seen a section of land yet that all six hundred and forty acres has the best topography or the best soil on it. So what they will probably wind up doing is taking the area that is the weakest for one reason or another, and let's say it's a quarter section, they lease a quarter of their land out, have a guaranteed income, concentrate on farming on three-quarters of the section, and will make as much or more money, if you look at what they get from agriculture in combination with their lease payment, to the San Antonio Water System or some other buyer, than what they are currently making. So, contrary to those who believe in doom and gloom, I'm willing to bet and give odds that the economies of Medina and Uvalde County will flourish under a water market and that agriculture will do very, very well as long as - as well as other industries M: who may be attracted to those cities in the interim.
H: Another thing the High Plains Water District has done ...
M: Yes.
H: ...self-regulated...
M: Yes.
H: ...well-spacing...
M: Right.
H: ...water usage... Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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M: That's right.
H: ...without any government. They decided this is what we have to do in our own self-interest.
M: And they went to the government and got what's called Chapter 52s, and well-spacing works fine in West Texas because you have a different aquifer structure. Water does not flow very rapidly out there and so well-spacing works as opposed to limiting well-pumpage by giving you an allocation. I think the catfish farm is a very good example of well-spacing not working in Bexar County.
H: Right. Yeah, one guy can use half as much as the city ...
M: Yes.
H: ...or a fourth, or whatever it is, on a given day.
M: Yes. A third of what SAWS uses. One of the things that we're seeing, interestingly enough, as a result of the inverted rate structure that SAWS implemented last year: we M: went back and analysed our pumpage rates where we had comparable rainfall conditions within the same timeframe and we saw a significant reduction in our water pumpage. Last year, the first year of conservation, than we did under similar conditions in previous years. I think it will take some fine tuning on that to make that really work. Businesses completely exempt, apartments are completely exempt, all of that conservation is now on the back of the Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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residential user. I think in time that will be expanded. We have a program for encouraging residential users to replace commodes with conservation commodes. Very significant if you do that with enough people. One of the things we're finding is, under our program the very lowest income people who did, for all practical purposes, get this for free, are not taking advantage of it. So we're trying to make adjustments in it to where the people that it really means the most for, to get the most benefit out of it, we're going to restructure that to where it will be more available to them than it is now.
H: Do you think these rate changes will eventually bring people to get rid of St. Augustine grass, which is a very thirsty grass, and go to a more natural ground cover?
M: Yes, I think it will. And frankly, we're just being very candid here,...
H: Right.
M: ...I think that the San Antonio Water System has a M: responsibility to the community to be a demonstration project, to show what they can do. And so we have landscape plans being developed at this time, as well as the most efficient irrigation system that you can - that we're aware of - for lawn watering, to be installed on - at corporate headquarters, to where when people think of xeriscaping they don't think of Tucson, Arizona.Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: Right.
M: It can be very attractive. We have...not only do I think we have that obligation to show people that this can - that it can be very attractive, but I think we ought to show them what the water saving are. And we have a location to where, if you look at our site, if you're coming into the city for the first time, chances are you are going to see our headquarters as you come off the expressway, as the first building and the first landscaping that you're exposed to. So, that's something that I hope will be complete before the end of next spring and people will have an opportunity to see it.
H: Did any of the water system people study irrigation with the Israelis who...? I've been there several times and they really make maximum use.
M: You're talking about the drip system?
H: Drip.
M: Drip. We rely primarily on A&M. And A&M, of course, has a world-wide network, if you would, as far as all the M: systems that are available, so we're working with them. Not only on irrigation system, but also on the different types of plants. That require the least amount of water. And my guess is that it will be a drip, but I'm - drip is not a universal solution as far as saving water.
H: Right. We've covered the two areas of your special Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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knowledge, building and water, how about your general thoughts on changes in San Antonio since 1968? Culturally, education. How's the city differ now in some of those other areas?
M: Well, I think if we could expand culture to include politics.
H: Sure. That's part of culture.
M: Yeah, I think it is. I think - I had a very unique vantage point because of the particular time-frame that I was on the council, in that the build-up of the resentment of the neglect of the south and west and to, perhaps to a lesser degree, although you'd get argument from some of these others on that. That build-up of resentment I think was just about to the explosion point. And even though I don't think he is given credit for this publically, I don't think most people really recognize this, Charlie Becker and I developed a friendship. I did not know Mayor Becker until a few months before I was elected, but we probably disagree more than any two people in town and yet we're probably - he's one of my very best friends. But he had a way about M: him, even though he came from what people from the south and west and east sides of town would say, the priviledged class: North Side, Cavaliers, Country Club. He had a - he had a feeling about the average citizen that I think he conveyed during his tenure and it was - I take Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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nothing away from those who preceded him, but I think he recognized that this pressure had built up to the point to where, as he used to say, open up the front doors to city hall to everybody. On a personal level I can remember how frustrated and impatient I would get, I was forty years old at the time, when citizens to be heard might last two hours, everybody got to talk.
H: Uh-huh. Most of them the same folks.
M: Most of them the same folks, but letting off steam was important. And he seemed to me to convey to people that he was really interested in the condition of the less fortunate.
H: And he was, of course, instrumental in finishing off the Good Government League, which had begun as a reform movement but had wound up, as all reform movements do...
M: That's right. You could take any reform movement and ...[laughter]...and ultimately it has a termination of its cycle. And I was...Charles originally was a Good Government League candidate. Ran as an independent the second time when he ran for mayor, which was as you know not technically he was running for a place, but the Good Government League M: made that particular race for that place the mayor's race and even though he did not have a majority on the council, and the council technically selected the mayor at that time, he was elected mayor because the Good Government Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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League had made that place the mayor's race. And I admire the way that he worked, not only with the citizens, but the staff, but the other people on the council. Everybody had their say. And...
H: And this was still when everyone was elected at-large.
M: Everyone was elected at-large, but everybody had their say. And though we could disagree, as I mentioned we often did, we were never disagreeable. And I think that - I wish that he were given credit for what I think was a very important role to play in this transition from the Good Government League to the loss of control by the Good Government League, and from that to districting. Because in my opinion I think the districting if you look at when we did it...
H: Which was '77.
M: 1977. When we did it, we changed the perception of the way the less priviledged sectors of the city viewed the city government.
H: And the city did it voluntarily.
M: There was pressure.
H: There was pressure, but nevertheless it was done, I thought, rather gracefully.
M: It was done very gracefully and it was not done piecemeal. It was done whole hog...let's do the the whole group and let's directly elect the mayor and, even though onCliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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a per capita basis we're not as rich as some other cities in Texas, I think that we are light years ahead of either Houston or Dallas, and for that matter, Austin, as far as having a community that works well together, especially considering our diversity.
H: One thing that was brought up is the down side of single member districts, when it happened. Was that the members of the city council would be concerned about their district and only the mayor could have the big picture of what was going on. How have you found that? It's been eighteen years.
M: I think that was overstated. Sure, there're probably some...many examples of where, on a particular issue, that a particular councilperson might have abused that or confirmed that fear. But if you're going to succeed down there and be successful for your district, as well as the city as a whole, you'll always have to remember that it takes six votes.
H: Uh-huh.
M: And if you understand that, then all of a sudden you have to be interested in the whole city.
H: Right. And that's a very pragmatic reminder. You can't do anything without six.
M: You gotta have six, man! And so...you know I...one of my avocations, I guess, is city government. And I look backCliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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at my fears, because I was actively opposed to a complete districting. I was concerned about what you just raised and that was that you really only had one city councilperson you were looking, and that was the mayor, and you had ten district votes. But I look at Frank Wing, from the southside. He was concerned for the city as a whole. If I were trying to select the councilperson that I think was most effective over all those years, I would say Frank Wing was the most effective of any.
H: Uh-huh. He is now the number one deputy to Henry Cisneros at the Housing and Urban Development.
M: Yes. But he knew how to get six votes better than anybody I've ever met. [laughter]
H: I saw him in action, up close and personal, one time. Very effective. I've asked this of other people. If tomorrow you were emperor of Bexar County for one day and whatever you said goes what would you do?
M: I would make two wishes.
H: Okay.
M: My first wish would be that we have better paying jobs for more people. And two would be that we would have assurance of an adequate supply of quality water at a fair price to support the growth of our community.
H: Okay. I appreciate your time Cliff.
M: You're welcome.Cliff Morton (Tape 1 of 1)
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END OF TAPE 1, Side 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.