INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: MR. JOE NICOLA
DATE: JUNE 8, 1988
PLACE: SAN MARCOS, TEXAS
INTERVIEWER: LES PISTEL (Frances Stovall/Marilyn Pis tel
also present)
J: She (his mother) couldn't get booking on a regular
passenger boat or a liner or whatever ... a steamer so she got
passage on a freighter. The kind that go in from port to
port. So it took months to get from her home down to Ellis
Island. When they arrived at the port in Italy and going
through the straits between Sicily and the toe of the Boot, a
mountain seemed to explode and of course they thought the end
of the world had arrived. And everybody knelt down and
prayed and got scared and went down into the hold. And my
mother stood at the rail of the ship and she shook her fist
at the mountain and she said "you're not going to keep me
from going to America." That was the Etna in 1892. That's
how we pinpoint when she was traveling to the United States.
The eruption of Mt. Etna. That was 1892.
L: Your mother ...
J: That is beyond San Marcos.
L: Ok. First of all let's get your name, your age and your
birthdate.
NICOLA
J: Ok. My name is Joe Nicola .. born on March the 3rd 1903.
I'm 85.
FS: In San Marcos.
J: In San Marcos.
L: You lived in San Marcos all your life?
J: Everyone of those years.
L: You attended school here, here in San Marcos?
J: Oh by the way, you see that picture over there? Over
by the window. That's me and the entire student body ..
professors, faculty and workmen of the college on the hill.
That's everybody.
MP: In what year?
J: In one picture.
FS: In 1922.
MP: In 1922.
J: That's everybody.
L: You attended college there, too.
J: It's hard to believe they could get everybody into one
picture .. S or 6 hundred.
FS: Where did you attend school leading up to college?
J: The old red high school over there on Fredericksburg
Road.
FS: On Fredericksburg Road .
J: Originally I went to Garnet Institute which was a
Methodist supported school. During the war ... the First World
War. And as you know or maybe you don't know, in the middle
of the year, the war was ended .. the school collapsed . .
financially so they transported all those who wanted go to
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San Marcos High Schoool. So I went to the High School at
that time.
L: Was that school a private or a ... ?
J: Garnet was a private school. And during the war it was
a military institute . It was run by the Army. The director
was a Colonel and his name was Lockhart. He was an Army
officer.
L: He ran it then.
J: You got it. Of course we were just kids then .. The war
didn't mean anything. It meant that I was in there as a day
student. I lived here. The rest of them lived at the dorm
that eventually became the old hospital. That was the mens'
dorm. The girls' dorm was attached to the main building.
They kept separated that way. So when we got home, we got
on our bicycles and picked scrap iron, bones, rags, copper,
brass . Sold it to the junk man for the war effort.
L: That was the way you had games after school.
J: Not much games ... work . But we wanted to support the
war effort at the time. San Marcos has changed, of course.
L: That ' s what we want to hear.
J: The railroad station used to be over here across the
street. It was located where HEB is now. That's the first
IGN .. International Great Northern Railroad passenger station.
And when they moved it . .. when they built this new passenger
railroad station, they moved the building to the corner
opposite the old telephone company. And some lady rented it
and made it a restaurant, or grocery store or something . I
barely remember it. But that's where the first passenger
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station was located. My office used to be in that vacant lot
and everything that you see in here was in that office and we
had a fire and everything was destroyed from the beginning of
this til 1906.
MP: That's too bad ... a fire is devastating.
J: Oh there's no money value.
L: Couldn't put a value to it.
J: Every once in awhile I meet a friend who's more Dr less
my age and I can discuss with .. and he can remember. Because
once you get past a few more years no one remembers anything
because they don't exist. Like Goerge Burns says, he has no
enemies because he's outlived them all.
L: Well, what was it like at home . . where did you live here
in San Marcos?
J: Believe it or not, I lived in this house.
L: How long have you lived here?
J: Since 1910. This house was built in 1910. But it was
located across the alley over there. There used to be ... we
had a lumber yard on the far end of the same block ... there
were 2 lumber yards across the railroad tracks from HEB and
one across the street here. Oh, we had a lot of them. Again
stressing the change in ethics, and the economy and whatever.
My mother was a peddler. I'm going to get beyond San Marcos
in a minute if you don't stop me.
FS: We want social history, not just San Marcos.
J: I've got all that on tape already. Anyway, when my
mother landed here in San Marcos, she had a brother waiting
for her. And he was a peddler.
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NICOLA
FS: And her name ... her name was?
J: Mary.
FS: The last name? The last name again?
J: Nicola, eventually.
FS: But her maiden name again.
J: Warde.
FS: Mary Warde.
J: Right.
MP: And she came because her brother was here? Is that why
she chose San Marcos?
J: That's why she came.
MP: Her bother was al ready here?
J: He was already here. She had 3 brothers; they were all
here. And eventually they left San Marcos and eventually
left her alone all by herself. She decided that she had to
make a living and she decided that she would be a peddler.
So one day she got on the passenger train to Austin and went
to McKee Eiler Department store, wholesalers on Congress Ave,
between 4th and 3rd, along about there, on the right hand
side . And she was pretty short on English but she could make
herself understood. She asked to see the boss. They went and
got Mr. Eiler, one of the bosses, and she told him if he knew
her brother. "Oh yes. "Well I want to sell merchandise
also." And he said, "All right, we will open an account for
you-how do you want to pay for it?" She said, "I am going to
take out the merchandise but I am not going to pay you for
it. I'm going to take it to San Marcos and sell it, and
then I come back and pay you for it." Now my mother was
~
J
NICOLA 6
only Sft 4 inches tall. He looked at her and he must have
been a good judge of character •. you'll have to pardon me.
FS: We understand Mr. Nicola.
J: So he told her to take whatever she wanted .. you will -
have to pardon me.
L: That's perfectly all right.
J: Anyway, she filled two valises with merchandise­handkerchiefs,
silk scarfs, underwear, safety pins -
everything she thought families would need. And she said
"Now Mr. Eiler, we have to shake hands, otherwise there is no '
sale." So they shook hands. And she put that stuff on a
south bound train and wound up in San Marcos. And here she
was with all that merchandise, no buggy, no wagon, no mule or
horse or anything to count on.
L: And the streets weren't that good, probably.
J: The streets that were there weren't that good so she had
no other choice so she strapped one on her back and she
carried the other one in her arms and she started out on her
own, toward San Antonio. In those days there were no
streets, no highways, no roads-just cattle trails so she went
from house to house.
FS: Stringtown area.
J: Spent the first night in Stringtown and when it carne
pretty close to dark why whatever house she was with, she
sold whatever she had and when it was over she said that she
would like to find a place to sleep. And in those days you
didn't turn away anybody who was traveling alone. People
were people and they would give her a room, a bed or a pad on
.,
. ~
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the floor. They would take care of her and in the morning
they would give her breakfast. And she would open her
valises and tell them to take whatever you want. Nobody
took anything . If they took, they paid for it. I don't
know how long it took for her to get to San Antonio but she
got there. By that time she had practically nothing. Then
she would go to A. B. Frank Co., on Commerce Street and
repeat the same thing that she did with Mr. Eiler for the
return trip. And here she comes. When she got to Austin,
went to Mr. Eiler and said, "All right I 'm ready to pay you.
How much do lowe you?" Would pay him and select more
merchandise. Of course all of that I don't know too much
about e xcept what she used to tell me. So I don't know how
long she did it.
L: But she would walk from San Marcos to San Antonio.
J: And from San Antonio to Austin.
L: Back to Austin, back here to San Marcos.
J: On foot.
L: On foot.
J: On foot, carrying two valises. Nobody bothered her,
nobody got in her way, nobody hurt her, everybody loved her.
MP: How long did she do that?
J: That's what I ..
L: He said that he . .
J: It couldn't have been too long because, well I don't
know.
MP: Did she meet your father about then?
J: About then, yeah because I came along so she had to
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stop. She rented a house on Comal St. til now until she built
this in 1910 and she went through the same motions to build a
house as she did with Mr. Eiler. She walked across the
street up to the lumber yard. The gentlemen's name was
Gruber. And she told him that she wanted to build a house
and a store and he sort of drew something out-is this what
you want. Yes, that's exactly what I want. How much would
it cost? Well, he figured it out, material, labor and
everything - $1500. "All right, we'll build it". And he
got some papers and she said "What's that"? Well, you have
to sign a deed of trust, mortgage and a note. "I'm not going
to sign anything" she said. "You build the house and the
store when you get through I'll give you $500. One year
from that date, I'll give you another $500, and 3 years from
that date I'll give you the last $500. Is that ok?" He
said "I guess it is." Pretty good. So they shake hands
again . That's how she built it. And that's how she paid
for it.
L: That was the contract, the handshake.
J: That was it. Not only her but back in the old days, in
those days people trusted each other. They had to be pretty
good judges of character. That's how they did it. And
that's how she built her business . It was facing the .. this
building was facing the railroad station in those days. So
the front end was sort of a grocery store and cafe and
engineers and the b r akemen and all the railraod workers were
her customers. In those day the Missouri Pacific and IG&N
ran 4 trains, 4 passenger trains, each way every day. They
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NICOLA
had the Sunshine Special that was their crack non-stop train
between San Antonio and Austin but it did stop here ... and
freight trains of course every few minutes. Not like
now ... it was tremendous.
L: Did they have one line or 2 sets of rails?
J: It's always been a single rail, but all along the road
there are side tracks, and spurs and all of that but it was a
single track.
L: Single track.
J: Another peculiar thing happened, ah, in 19 ... well about
11, thereabouts. A lady came to see her at the store. She
wanted to know who the owner of the house was ... and my mother
told her she was. Well she said "My name's Cavanaugh". If
you all are familiar with the University of Texas, Cavanaugh
donated most of the land for the University of Texas, and she
was his daughter. And she said "Well now, I'm Mrs.
Cavanaugh and I own this property .. I own this lot. And as
you know, the law says that whatever is on the lot belongs
to the owner of the lot . So now on you want to pay me $25 a
month rent." Well, she said "I don't have $25." Well she
said "I'll be here nex t month and you'd better have $25 or
you'll have to vacate the building . " And my mother said
"Well, alright ... that's fair enough." So in between that
time and the next month, she hired a housemover and she
moved the house from there to right here. During the night.
FS: Wasn't that clever.
L: Who owned this land?
J: She did, she bought the land first.
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L: She bought the land first?
J: Yes, she learned . The nex t morning, or when Mrs.
Cavanaugh came the second time she found a vacant lot. ' Yes,
she was angry but what could she do? " I moved my house and
you got your lot." Nothing she could do about it.
FS: Now that was tricky.
L: Then in your youth, you helped out in the store?
J: Yes, that was in 1910, I was 7 years old. But San
Marcos ...
FS: Well let me ask you this. I can recall things when I
was 5 years old when I lived in Illinois because I remember
gOlng to church there, so you were about 7 years old when
they were building the pretty new First National Bank. 00
you recall that at all?
J: No.
FS: It was built in 19 and 09.
J: Well, the reason it is hazy in my memory is because at
the same time they built the bank, they built a building
across from the bank. That red brick building. T.E. Griffen
merchandise and it was 3 stories high. And that was the
biggest store anywhere near anybody . They had everything
that you wanted in that store. It was also clothing,
groceries , every thing else. She did get .....
FS: Ah ha, that was your mother's competition, I guess.
J: Well that store was on the corner, acros s from 1st
National Bank and beyond that it wa s nothing all the way to
the railroad tracks. So on Saturdays, my mother went to the
owner of the lot next to the store and asked if she could put
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NICOLA
a stand here on Saturdays, to sell things to the people?
"Sure, go ahead Mary." So she put up a tent and she sold
sandwiches, I don't know if they had hamburgers then or not,
but cooling drinks. On Saturday night, on Saturday, back in
those days, everybody who lived in the country came to town
to shop. They did this every week. So on Saturdays it was a
bee hive around the courthouse square.
L: That's where you came in and helped?
J: That's right. And she did that until they started
building and then she had to get out. Then of course the war
came along, then it started to get hazy about 1914- 13, 14.
All the young men went off to war and the town slowly began
to change. Back while the institutions, changing intitutions
Aquarena, Mr. Rogers (A. B. Rogers) owner of the furniture
store where Alert is right now, he had a furniture store and
a funeral establishment. His son Paul built a hotel now,
well it is a hotel.
FS: It is an inn.
J: But when he finished it he did not have Aquarena, it was
a hotel . And when the contractors were going up, "When you
are getting to the top roof, I don't want any gables or
any thing-I want a flat roof. Flat as flat you can make it",
and they wanted to know why . "Never mind why, just build me
a flat roof, concrete." He says, "ain't you afraid it is
going to leak into the building?" And he told the
contractor, "you know mister you are a pretty good
contractor, I guess you have been in the business a long
time." He said, "Yes." "And when it rains did you ever see
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NICOLA
one drop of water stand on top of another drop of water?"
Contractor said, "no it is impossible." "Ok, so it a lesson
in hydraulics-water will not stand on a roof, it will run
off if it is level. Now if it is not level when you finish~
you will change it. You will have to come back and fix it."
So they built a level roof. And Paul got that idea from
Mexico. All roofs in Mexico are flat. And I asked on one
of my trips there; asked why. They answered it never snows
in Mexico. So a flat roof was put on. And they put a
railing around it, put a juke box in one corner and hired
bands on Saturday and they had a roof garden and dancing.
Orchestras came from allover to play on his roof. Herman
Walderman, Fred Gott, J.C. Gardner from Austin, Henry Busse
and his trumpet, and Mac Rogers-I can think of all kinds of
bands that played there.
L: So that was sort of the focal life, social life of
Saturday nights.
J: They came from allover; they came from everywhere.
Nobody had ever seen a roof garden. Oon't know where Paul
got the idea, but one night, I guess it was excitement, two
young men got into a fight for a girl and one of them killed
the other. And that was the end . It stopped right there.
There was no more dancing on top of that roof. That's when
he moved into the present Aquarena complex and he built the
first glass bottom boats. Jack Warner, you know Jack? He
told him how to do it. And he told him what he wanted and
you do the building. He did-the first glass bottom boat like
they have now.
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L: Then you have seen the build-up of Aquarena Springs from
nothing to what it is today?
J: That's right.
MP: Excuse me, but was that after the war, say around 1920',
or when was it?
J: It was after, oh yeah, just before World War II.
FS: 1929.
J: Oh yeah.
FS: Paul traveled allover the world trying to think of
something new to put in the Aquarena. In a trip to
Switzerland that's where he got the idea of that thing-the
overhead.
L: The Sky-ride?
J: Yeah, the Sky-ride. And then on another trip, he
wanted, trying to think of what he wanted to do, he used to
tell me .. I bought some land from him. I don't know what he
wanted to do but whatever it was, it was from Germany. "I'm
going to go and copy that cotten-picking thing and put one
in San Marcos, the first one in the United States" I don't
remember what it was, it was some kind of ride, or amusement,
something and he did not get a chance to develop it. He got
sick over there and died. And that's about all construction
or whatever. His heirs didn't have the ideas and they
decided to keep it going. It went up and down for a long
time. Of course, now it is very succes sful and looks like
it is getting more s uccessful. And now there's Sea World in
San Antonio.
L: That's going to hurt.
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J: I don't know if its going to hurt, maybe it helps.
MP: I think that it will help.
J: I think that it will help, yes.
MP: You are going to get people corning off 35, this is a -
family thing, a little different.
J: I've always contended a man is an animal that likes to
be with other people - they like to get together, be
together. That's why you look at McDonalds, (you are
familiar with McDonalds). McDonalds is right here; across
the street is Long John Silver; right next to Long John
Silver is Taco Cabana; right next to McDonalds on this side
is Wendys; across the street is a Pizza House and also the
Steak House and also Burger King and Gil's Chickens - they
are all right there together - you can throw a rock and break
every window.
L: Which means sometimes we rely more on food for our
enj oyment than other things ..
J: And they go there because whatever they want is right
there. But.
FS: Let's go back about this. I think that it is
interesting that your mother was able to afford to send you
to Coronal Institute. Coronal was not inexpensive.
J: You are not going to believe it. It was $18 a term. Of
course $18 in those days was a lot of money.
FS: That's what I mean.
L: She had to sell an awful lot of goods for $18.
J: Yeah. She had to do it and she did it .•
FS: Do you have brothers and sisters?
J: Well , I had two sisters. One died in 1910 and the
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other, her name was Stella, she had 5 children. She lived in
Austin on 7th St., right by a little creek, where the police
department ·is right now. And in 1915 the dam broke in
Austin, terrible storm , and it went over the river bank,
swept everything away, including my sister and her children,
including her house.
FS: And she drowned in the flood.
J: It happened on a Saturday night and on Sunday morning I
used to buy the paper. I went to town and coming from church
bought the paper and on page 1, ENTIRE FAMILY DROWNED. The
last name was Hailo and when I read all of that I knew that
they were gone, so I didn't tell Mother. But I wasn't the
only one reading the paper, a neighbor came and told her
right away.
FS: I bet that was crushing.
J: Still no roads to Austin, no railroads traveling that
day so she (mother) did what she had to do; she walked to
Austin.
L: Again.
J: Along the railroad tracks and she went to the police
and wanted to know if they had found her daughter. They
said, "No, you can't find anybody in all that trash." She
said, "Oh, yes-I'll find her." So she started down
Congress, Congress had a new bridge down and in one of the
spans she found her daughter.
FS: She was a remarkable woman. When did she pass away?
When did your mother die?
J: 1946.
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FS: Did she get buried here in this cemetery?
J: That's one of the sad things about what we did. She had
gallstones and the pain hit her. Our doctor would give her a
hypodermic shot and tell her to keep quiet for awhile, and ~t
would be all right. One day she had it and he gave her a
shot. He was a very well-known doctor, but he also likes to
drink. So he went off and about an hour later, he came back
and he said that he had to give her a shot. He had already
given her one but I didn't say anything, thought that it was
a different kind of medicine. So he gave her a shot of
something else and he killed her.
FS: Oh!
J: That was before we knew about malpractice.
L: That was before the su i ng of ..
J: And, I'm not going to tell you who it is.
FS: She was in her 60's something.
J: She was in her 60's. While there was nothing to do
about it, except go on living. We seem to be digressing from
San Marcos.
L: Yes, I was getting ready to say, getting back to San
Marcos ...
FS: She was left without her two daughters?
L: After the change in the railroad effects in San Marcos,
that is the number of trains evidently have declined since
you don't have anything like that today.
J: There were two railroads-the Katy with two passenger
trains each way every day and the IGN ran three or four each
way, every day plus their freights and at this time the two
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railroad stations were bee hives of activity and there was
the beginning of the taxi service. The first taxis were
being used at that time. All Fords. Ed Dobbins, he was the
pioneer in that area and Joe Hormachea (You didn't know him,
did you?) and they would line up along the area of the
parking lot and as people got off the train and there weren't
that many automobiles at that time to begin with. And most
of those people were people going to the university and they
would haul them there - 25 cents. If they had baggage it
would then cost 40 cents. And railroad men back in those
days had what they called the local gang, they worked on the
railroad, keeping it; maintaining it. The IGN had one gang
that worked from here to San Marcos to Hunte r . Had another
that worked from here north to the Blanco River-the Katy had
the same thing, except the Katy veered off towards Smith.
Katy freight trains went to Houston instead of north to
Dallas, but used this Missouri, this track, over here for
their passenger trains. The Katy would leave San Antonio to
here, then it would switch over to this track to go
north-Dallas and so forth, but the freight trains went south
to Houston. Then in the early 20's there was across the
street from the old theater, the Palace theater, over there
where to corner ..
Fs: Oh, yes down near Dick Store's place.
J: On that corner there was a garage owned by a man named
Josh Merrick, he was a big hea vy- s et fellow and he ran a taxi
service all alone . One day, one night a man got off the
passenger train, got a cab from Mr. Merrick and "Where do you
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want to go?" The man said "Lockhart." He said "wait a
minute, Lockhart is 16 miles from here." "I don't care, I've
got to get to Lockhart." There's no way to get there, no
train is going to Lockhart. There was one a day but only in
the day time. It was called the Dinky. It traveled from
here to Lockhart and back. It did this and back every day.
L: And how far is Smithfield?
J: Smithfield is about 40 miles. So the man insisted on
going to Lockhart. "Ok, it's going to cost you. "I don't
care what it costs, take me to Lockhart" and he took him to
Lockhart. The next day it happened again. Somebody else
wanted to go to - I forget where, Hunter, I think, or
something, I forget. (Nature is a funny business) So he had
two big sedans, old cars. He got mechanics to chop the front
end off this car and chop the back end off this one. They
didn't have acetelyne torchs then, you know, they chopped
them off and the mechanic asked, "what are you going to do
with these?" "We are going to put them together." So they
put them together and made a long automobile that had about 4
rows of seats. It was the origin of the first bus. It
happended in San Marcos. This is not widely known. So he
began to run a bus to Lockhart every day. It would go to
Lockhart in the morning and to Hunter later in the day and
back to Lockhart in the evening and back to Hunter at night.
People who lived in Lockhart and worked in San Marcos it was
a godsend. Same way with Hunter. Same way with Martindale,
all the little towns between here and Seguin, Luling. And
here's another one 'cause you know that I'm going to give the
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railroads a little competition. I don't know where he went,
but he found someone who could build him a better bus that
would hold say 12 people. And so help me he began to run to
Austin. For 50 cents.
FS: And you say his name was Merrick.
J: Merritt. George Merritt. And it didn't take long you
know for people with money to see that there was a bird's
nest on the ground. They bought him out. And then they
built a better looking bus. It was bigger. And it was
called the Red Ball Bus Line. And it ran from Austin to San
Antonio . Then somebody came along and bought them out. I
forget what it was called. And then somebody bought them out
and that was the Greyhound.
MP: Well I'll be darned.
L: And that's how the Greyhound Bus originated.
FS: That's an interesting genesis on the transportation
system.
J: Merritt . . . of course Merritt got pretty good money for
it. And he retired and he said to heck with it. Let them
fight it out. But later, then he used to reminisce and
thought " that was stupid on my part to sell that bus line."
But there was nothing he could have done about it ... all the
other company had to do was build a bigger bus .. use the same
highway.
L: Well highways were in then; they had started.
J: The roads were narrow and not too good .. but still
eventually that was the downfall of the railroads . Not only
that, but automobiles became popular. You could buy ... well I
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bought a Chevrolet in 1925 . .. brand new for $450 from a
gentlemen named Schlemmer. He lived in Kyle .. Norman
Schlemmer.
FS: S-c-h-I-e-m-m-e-r.
J: Right. In fact for awhile there he was an officer in
the bank there. Norman sold me a brand new 1925 Chevrolet
for $450. Later I bought a Hudson from Ed Dobbin for $850
or $900. That was a big automobile. So they became
popular.
FS: Let's go back ... and see if you have any recollection of
this and I'm not an authority or specialist in this issue,
but I recall that when Albert Sidney Burleson was
the .. Oh .. Wilson's Postmaster General right after the war, we
talked about how bad the highways were. It's my
understanding that in about 1929 or in that era the Federal
highway system began. And each state was allowed a
certain portion of these Federal highway funds. And
Oklahoma didn't pick up their portion so because Albert
Sidney Burleson who was born in San Marcos, too, was
influential in the Wilson cabinet, because he was Postmaster
General ... he was instrumental in getting Oklahoma's funds
transferred, added, to Texas'. And one of the first
sections of Federal highway system was put in between Austin
and Kyle and San Marcos with these funds along what would be
the Stagecoach Road or Post Road and that is one of the
earliest sections of the Federal highway systems. Now that
would be in the ... you'd be well up into a young man then.
Do you recall any of this?
2 0
NICOLA
J: One thing leads to another.
name ... a big contractor.
In Laredo, oh what's his
FS: Root, by any chance? Would it be Root?
J: NO .. It wasn't him. He built the Vista Hotel there in ­San
Antonio there on the River ... he built it section by
section.
MP: Zachry?
J: Zachry .. H.B.
MP: H.B. Zachry.
J: Now those people lived in Laredo. Relatives of my
mothers . I used to go over and visit them once a year.
FS: These people that are in the Institute of Texan
Cultures' history.
J: And Charlie, the oldest of the brothers, worked for H.B.
Zachry. Zachry had a little construction company ... he built
roads and stuff like that. So one day, Zachry was coming to
San Antonio from Laredo in his car .. or truck or whatever, and
he had a flat in D'Hanis. And in D'Hanis or just outside of
it is a big mountain of asphalt. And while they were fixing
his car he wandered around and he saw that big mountain of
black stuff and he asked "Say, what is that junk?" He said,
"Oh well we use that" .. I don't remember now what the guy told
him ... so he walked around in it. And he said "Show me where
you've done some of this." They were building a ... some kind
of a dance floor for a wealthy person who lived in that area
and he u s ed to have parties every Saturday night and they
brought this to a small area and they stocked up with this
black stuff ... waited for it to dry and all that and waited
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NICOLA
for it to dry. He said "My God .. can you imagine what this
would do on a highway? Can you sell me some of this stuff?"
Yeah, we'll sell you some. So, he went back to Laredo .. and
wondered where he could do it, without getting too much
publici ty.
FS: As a trial, huh?
J: So he built it from Hebronville to Laredo. 28 miles.
He built a single lane highway. And then he opened it up.
And people used to go from miles around.
FS: Just to ride on it.
J: Then, comes to the point where your story probably
begins. They came over here and they started
at ... where ... the road turns off to that little .. Thompson's
Island.
FS: Yes.
J: Somebody from the bank.
FS: Cate probably?
J: Cate. You know where Cate's house is right there . . well
he started right there. At the bend, you know. Right around
the bend. And he went straight to the Blanco River. H.B.
Zachry. "We're going to try it." It was a resounding
success. One thing led to another and this road that you're
talking about in sections between here and Austin.
Fs: And that's probably .. Burleson probably knew about that
and the reason why he could take it then from there to the
Federal government.
J: And that was the initial time when asphalt was used for
a roadbed.
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NICOLA
L: And this was about what year?
J: Oh that would be, let's see, what about 19 .•
FS: 1929 or 1930?
J: No earlier.
FS: 1926 or 7?
23
J: About '26, somewhere along in there because that's when
I bought my car in 1925 ... and that's the first thing I
did ... I went out there and rode on that road.
L: Had to be '25.
J: Like you say, somewhere along in there.
FS: No this Albert Sidney Burleson is the grandson of
General Burleson whose son was Major Burleson, whose house
was the house where A.S.Burleson lived where he sat on the
curb and ate his curds and whey, as he said, is still
standing. The Robert Knispels live in that house and I think
that is one of the most significant houses in Texas.
J: It's peculiar how these things start from ideas.
FS: A little rock house to begin with ..• he had slaves.
J: And they still use asphalt.
FS: Oh you're talking about the asphalt •.
J: I'm talking about the asphalt, yes ... But I, like I said,
I hate to digress from San Marcos ..• I'm sure you want to know
more about ...
FS: No really •.• we want to know social history ...
L: That Keaton Griffin •• had a fire.
J: 1920 something ... The fire started in the 3rd floor.
MP: Oh this is the store?
J: Keaton Griffin building .• and it must have burned quite
•
NICOLA
awhile before anybody discovered it, because it was totally
detroyed on top. But somehow or another it didn't go down.
Well, we understand, of course, that heat always builds up so
evidently maybe the tar on the roof caught on fire and kept
the fire up there. Anyways they put it out but they tore
down the upper third floor. And put a roof over it and
that's the way it is. The building is empty now. And the
bank ... the First National Bank was not where it is right now.
It was across the street in that big rock building where all
the attorneys are. That's where it was. And that's where
Mr. Giesen ... one of the principal board of director members
or owners or whatever .. because, let's see.
FS: I understand that Ed Green started that bank, but then
when actually, when the new building was built it really came
under complete different ownership and it became a completelY
different.
J: Commodore .
FS: Commodore you called it. Would that be . . . I know those
three names .. Williamson and . . that was his son-in-law ...
J: Williamson has head cashier.
FS: His son-in-law .. the man we're trying to think of.
J: He had a boy ... we called Sonny .. would be my age
now .. . and Ed Gieson Jr., or younger . .. Blair .
FS: Blair ... Commodore Blair .
J: And the State Bank ... oh, one other thing. The Post
Office .. where the first one I remember ... was located
where ... you know where the barber shop is on the east side of
the square ... it ' s the only barber shop. Along about there
24
NICOLA
somewhere was the first Post Office. And then they moved it
to where the State Bank is now and eventually where the post
office is now. We had two telephone companies: one above the
Post Office, corner east side of the square, Hunt's Drug
Store. You don't remember that.
FS: I am a new comer.
J: You mean that you weren't born here? Where was it?
Wisconsin?
FS: I was born in West Texas, Odessa.
J: Anyway, the telephone company was above the Post Office
on the east side of the square where Henry Carr's red brick
office is. I mention this because he located here. And the
other telephone company is where First Federal is located
right next door, in the building nex t to the First Federal.
FS: That was the second telephone company.
J: Yes, there were two of them and when they merged, one of
them sold out or whatever happened, that's one that remained
right there next to the First Federal. Because when we had a
bank robbery in San Marcos when they came to rob the bank in
19--also in the 20's, the first thing that the robbers did
was to go up on the roof of the telephone company and cut the
cable. Then they put a man in front of what is now Duke and
A's five and ten cent store and the only other thing they
robbed in the middle of the night and the baker and that
would be Chesebro bakery, where Mrs. Laura Rams ey insurance
office is right now. Then they put a man there. And then
they broke the glass in the front of the building and blew up
the safe, robbed the bank and got away.
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NICOLA
MP: They got away, they didn't catch them?
J: Pardon me?
MP: They didn't catch the robbers?
J: Oh no.
FS: Was that the Glover's bank at that time?
26
J: No, that was State Bank. They moved to on the corner.
FS: Where the old bank is.
J: Where the old State Bank is now.
FS: This building that was the telephone company that was
consolidated, when was that built? Do you know about? About
the same time we have the Hill Country Framer right next to
it now.
J: Yes.
FS: It was the Fitzgerald's business.
J: Yes.
FS: We know when those buildings were built, because we have
an iron front building. I am curious to find out when that
building was built right next to the one that you are talking
about.
(Train noise very audible at this time)
J: I had a telephone book that was burned in the fire. Had
the numbers from I through 42 or something like that.
FS: One of the first ones.
J: When you picked up the phone you asked the operator for
number 7 or number 4. There weren't many phones in San
Marcos.
L: How old were you when the court house was built?
J: I can't remember. I don't remember the fire but I
NICOLA
remember when they were putting, raising the building,
tearing it down-I don't know-maybe 7 years old.
L: You were aware of the construction and you saw it going
up.
J: When it burned down, it remained there, without a court
house for a long time before they decided to tear down the
whole thing and start allover. Of course, back in those
days the square was absolutely populated with all kind of
businesses.
FS: Do you recall behind the court house? Now the court
house cafe and next was a place that was called Harper's Hall
and evidently in some of the early days, earlier than your
time, it was where they had entertainment there and they had
a little stage there on the second floor and this may have
been in 1880.
J: I don't remember it. On the south side of the square
where the Holiday theater, next to where the Holiday theater
is, was Schultz's Garden, that was a saloon. By the time I
remember more about it, they had voted the town dry, but the
sign was there for a long time. Schultz's Garden. It was a
saloon. On the corner, across from HEB's big building, it's
a new building now, but there used to be a two story building
right on the corner and that was a saloon, also before my
time. And then by the time I became aware of all these
things the county had already been dry.
MP: So how long was San Marcos dry?
J: Oh long time.
MP: A long long time.
27
NICOLA
J: Oh it was dry until recently.
MP: So prohibition didn't make any difference to the people
here.
J: Oh no. All they had to do was drive to the County
line ... or Hunter is 7 or 8 miles from here on the
Austin ... San Antonio Highway and it had 8 or 10 bars. And of
course bootleggers were allover the place in San Marcos.
And County line was 5 miles .. 6 miles on Seguin ~ighway.
There were a group of beer joints right there.
wet . Of course Lockhart was 14 miles.
Lockhart was
FS: Tell us how your mother celebrated Christmas and about
her cooking. Was she a good cook for you all .. ?
J: Oh yeah.
L: Did you have any special ritual that you followed at
Christmas time?
J: No except that we'd go out into the woods and come back
with a fir tree or pine tree or some sort of Christmas tree.
I remember when my .. I'd just gotten married and I got married
during the depression. Of course that was the wrong time of
the year to have gotten married. But the reason I remember
was Joe, my oldest son, was born in November .. November the
28th .. and at Christmas time he was just a few weeks old and
we had our Christmas tree and we had a few lights on it, a
few pieces of colored paper .. and the only thing under the
Christmas tree was Joe. In a little basket .
FS: That was a gift for his grandmother ..
J: That was the only thing we had for Christmas. We just
couldn't afford anything else.
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NICOLA
FS: We went through that too ... we're of that generation as
well.
J: Well, it was rough. But after that I remember I started
on appliance store and sold washing machines and radios ana
irons and fans and I noticed that the black people were all
in that area ... on the other side of the next street. The
next street was Guadalupe Street. And all the black people
lived on the other side of that street. And it was called
the Beat for whatever reason I don't know. The Hispanics,
they lived across Cheatham Street ... that's the next street
South. And they had a hell of time trying to get credit.
L: Both of them ... the Blacks and the Hispanics.
J: They could get it, but it wasn't easy. They had to have
a very good job, some money saved up, to buy on time. So I
made up my mind. By golly I was going to sell strictly to
them. So I began ... I remembered what my mother had done.
And I went to San Antonio and I looked up the manager of the
General Electric Corporation . .. they had a plant, they had a
division in San Antonio . And I told them my mother's story.
I said, this is the second generation and I want to do the
same thing. And it wasn't easy. He said, "Well, I'll have
to contact my people." In Schenectady, New York, or
wherever General Electric was ... "Why don't you come by next
week?" So, "Al right, I'll be here next week." What he did
is he came to San Marcos .
FS: Looked into you , huh?
J: No, he came to San Marcos to ask about me .
FS: That's what I mean.
2 '.
NICOLA
J: Yes . . so when I went ... I didn't know this. When I went
over there. "Well, have you made up your mind?" "Oh
yes ... what do you need?" "What do you mean, what do I need?"
"Take whatever you want." That's how I started. I bought
one or two washing machines ... refrigerator, bunch of hand
irons, oscilating fan. Then I began advertising they could
buy anything I had, $5 down and a dollar a week. Believe
me, I began to sell stuff. Then I hired a young man who
went around every Saturday and collected a dollar a week.
When he couldn't make it, I would do it. There was a black
lady her first name was Emma, everybody called her Aunt
Emma; she did washing. When I sold her the machine ... I sold
her a washing machine for $49.95, $5 down, a dollar a week.
Now she could do 10 times the washing that she did before
for the white folks. And the white folks, being economy
minded, I guess, they got wet wash. You know what wet wash
is?
FS: Sure.
J: She would wash the clothes, and then they would come and
take it wet. And hang it on the line to dry at home.
FS: She had the machine and they took advantage of it.
J: She could do 10 times the wash. So one day I went out
to collect my dollar and I asked Aunt Emma how she was doing.
"I'm doing fine, boy. I'm glad I bought this washer and
God bless you for helping me out." "Oh no, business is
business . " And for many years and still a few old timers
knew it they know me as Mr. Joe. And she said, "Mr. Joe is
you married?" I said, "Yes." "How long have you been
30
NICOLA
married?" "Oh, a year and something." "You got any
children?" "No, not yet." She said, "Why not?" I said,
"Aunt Emma, the situation, the economic situation right now
is no place to bring up a child. When I have a child I want
him to have a nice home, be able to send him to school,
clothi ng, you know how it is right now." She said, "Mr. Joe
you go on home and tell your wife that you want a baby. And
tell her that I said that the good Lord will provide."
That's what I did. I came and told Pat that black, well
you'll have to pardon the expression, that nigger lady said
that the good Lord will provide. We didn't call them blacks
then, you know.
FS: No.
J: So, we agreed that was the thing to do so we did and we
had Joe and so help me the good Lord did provide.
FS: She prayed for you.
J: She sure did . The following Christmas, I went over
there and I had a little box for her. And I said, "Do you
remember what you told me?" "Oh yes, you got the baby?" Oh
yeah. He was born November the 28th. And I brought you a
present. " And she unwrapped it. I t was an iron. "Well, I
like that, of course I got one, something like it not that
good." "Well, you haven't got one like this." The first
steam iron had just come out. I said, "Look, I pulled it out
put it on the end, unplugged it, put water in it, plugged it
in, waited a few minutes and pressed the button and SHHHHH.
"Oh, Mr. Joe, this is it."
FS: Her name wouldn't have been Williams, Emma Williams,
~l
NICOLA
would it?
J: No, her name was Hollins, H-O-L-L-I-N-S ... Emma Hollins.
Well, I don't know.
FS: You have other children ... you have a daughter and
another son, do you not?
J: I have 3 sons.
FS: 3 sons.
J: Joe . .. there they are up there. Joe on the end, Bobby
and Bill. You know Bill he's the one that teaches at the
high school.
FS: Is he a city councilman?
J: Yeah, a city councilman. Bill. Bobby the one in the
middle he was, he lives in Houston. And Joe lives in
California. That brings up something else. We're going to he
here all day.
L: No, not quite.
J: Alright, alright. I have what I consider a wonderful
family.
FS: I consider it that way too.
J: As they grew up, regardless of their age or
understanding, I'd say meet Mr. Brown .. How do you do Sir.
Sir. Glad to know you Sir. Very attentive, very correct,
very respectful. I raised them that way.
L: You got the same thing from your parents.
J: Oh that's the way it is .. that's the way it's done in
Europe. And in Asia . As Joe graduated from high school, it
was in the 60's. During the turmoil. College turmoil.
Young people wore the flag of the United States on the seat
7 0
~~
NICOLA
of their pants. He said, ··Dad, I'm going to join the Navy."
"Why do you say you got to join the Navy?" "Well, I want to
join the Navy." "Why don ' t you go to college first and then
join the Navy?" "No, I want to do this first and then I'l1-
go to college." So he joined the Navy. One year later, no
not one year but right after him, Bobby graduated and he
joined the Navy. After him Bill graduated, and he began to
mope around . . he wanted to join the Navy. About that time I
had had a ... wait a minute here. I said, "I want you to tell
me something. What's the big idea of you graduated out of
high school and instead of going to college, you join the
Navy? " Bill says, "Dad, everything we have, everything we
know, we owe to this country. Everything we ever hope to be
or achieve or possess we will owe to this country. We want
to pay our dues."
FS: That's the way my mother was. She joined the Women's
Army Corps, the first squadron, she was in that . But I us ed
to say my mother was a WAC, they'd look at me .. your mother
was a WAC? Like something was wrong. My mother was a WAC.
J: Joe had 5 children. Four boys and a girl.
them joined the Navy. Including the girl.
FS: And where's Joe now?
J: In California.
FS: He's a Lt. Commander there in that picture?
J: No.
MP: That's Bobby in the middle.
Everyone of
J: That's Bobby. Joe's on the end. He works for the
University of California. I don't know what position . . But
--.' , ~
NICOLA
all the boys joined the Navy. And the girl did too. When
her hitch was up they had put her in this section where ... you
see, when our ships are at sea, they change the code every so
many weeks or months. They don't keep their secret code any
length of time. They put her in that section, it was easy
for a girl to do. On a ship. There she was on a ship with
1500 men. And during her period of being in the Navy, the
Navy now has computerized the method of changing the code
and she now, she's in charge of it. A girl, a woman . Of
course, she's a young woman now. Whenever anything goes
haywire, any where on the Atlantic or Pacific, with the
system . .. Send Nicola out there.
FS: Wonderful.
J: So everybodys in the Navy. The little girl and the
little boy on the left are children of Joe's oldest son.
Which makes me a great grandfather. So we have 5 generations
of Nicolas .. and just 4, my mother has passed away.
MP: You should be very proud of all of them.
o'clock .. our next appointment is com1ng up.
END OF INTERVIEW
End of Tape 1, Side 1
It is now 11
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