BEXAR COUNTY HISTORICAL COMMISSION
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Dr. Clarence W. Norris, Dean Emeritus
of St. Philip's College
INTERVIEWER: Mrs. Esther HacMillan
DATE: October 20, 1977
PLACE: Oral History Program Office, Institute of Texan
Cultures
M: Dr.Norris, I know that you were born and lived in
Houston and did not come to San Antonio until you were
35 . Will you touch briefly on what life was like for
black people in those years?
N: I'm very happy to do that Mrs. MacMillan, and, of
course, as you have indicated, I was born in Houston,
and my mother's name was Lenora Spurlock. My father
was a minister. His name was Eddruit Norris. I had two
older brothers in Houston when I was born, and their
names were Elroy and Brandt. My father was very, very
in teres ted in the schools . And, in fact, I was named for
the son of a principal of the school that he attended in
Houston. This was an academy, called the Houston Academy,
which was really a Baptist school, and he was so interested
in the school and so much in love with the principal of
the school, that he named me after one of the sons of the
principal at the school . His son's name was Clarence.
And my father carne from Bay City, Texas, Matagorda County .
Actually he was reared by his aunt . My mother carne from
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La Grange, Texas. She was about 17 years old when she got
married and my father was also of teenage years. He was only
19 years of age when he got married . And, my father was
very interested in his children getting an education . In
fact, he had what you might call a passion for education.
And even though sometimes we didn't have any shoes or were
lacking in lots of things, even food, he insisted we go on
to school. If you lived in the home of Reverend Norris-­that
was what he was called--you had to go to school. You
had to go to school!
And I have some other memories of some of the things
that happened there, even during my preschool days In
Houston. I recall sitting on the front porch with my uncle
on what they called San Felipe Street at that time . It
is now West Dallas in Houston in what they call the
4th Ward District . In fact, I was born in that particular
area near San Felipe Street, where maybe some of you
recall, they had a riot during the First World War. Negro
soldiers broke ranks from Camp Logan, and anyway that's
a story in itself .
But, anyway, sitting on the front porch of my
uncle's on San Felipe Street, I recall as a boy. I was
probably five years of age . I remember looking right out
on the street there, and there was a fire wagon passing
pulled by very fast running horses. But, of course, I was
very afraid, you see, to look at that sight . There was a
ladder on the truck.
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And also, I remember in my backyard where I lived in
what they called a shotgun house in Houston, on Robin
Street, that was near the place I was born near San Felipe
Street. I was born near San Felipe Street on what was
called Valentine Street, and I can remember also there was
a cistern in the backyard of our three room shotgun
house. It was in the ground, and, of course, when it
rained, well, my mother would let water run into it. And
we had a horse, I recall at that time. I remember this
horse, and one day, we were really afraid when we saw the
two year old son lying in the yard. This horse came and
everybody was frightened because they knew the horse was
going to walk on this little fellow, but the horse
deliberately stepped over the child. And we were very
much relieved and elated over this.
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I forgot to mention that our shotgun house was near a
cemetery there in the 4th Ward. And we were sometimes very,
very afraid to go near the cemetery, especially at night.
M: (Laughing) Would you stop right here and tell me what
you mean by a shotgun house?
N: Well, a shotgun house is a house that is right straight.
It has three rooms, right straight back.
M: Rights traigh t?
N: One room in the front, the front room, middle room and
the kitchen. That was called a shotgun house.
M: (Laughing) In other words, you could fire a shotgun
right through there.
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N: Right through there.
M: That ' s cute.
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N: And now some of my early recollections about my school
life in Houston. As a matter of fact, I lived very near the
school that I attended in the 4th Ward, near San Felipe
Street. And when I was in the third grade, my teacher,
Mrs. Criner, accused me of talking to a girl sitting next
to me. Her name was Irma Bradley, a beautiful little girl.
She sat right across the aisle from me. The teacher thought
I was talking to the girl and she really punished me by
making me sit with her. We all laughed, and I would
have preferred being whipped, you see, by the teacher
(laughter) than have to sit with the girl . I sat on a
very small part of the desk and I'd say the space occupied
on the seat was, I'd say, just about half a foot on
the edge, because I was so ashamed to sit with the girl
at that time. The students really laughed at me. It was
really funny.
M: I'm sure.
N: And the name of the elementary school that I attended
was Gregory Elementary School. It was located in the 4th
Ward in a black ghetto in Houston. And the highest grade
at that elementary school at that time was the fifth grade.
M: That's as far as it went, the fifth?
N: Yes, at that time the elementary school only went to
the fifth grade .
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M: Your father, who was so concerned about good education,
was he satisfied with what you were getting? In that
elementary school?
N: Yes, at that time, of course, because he had no other
standard to go by. And at that time, of course, segregation
was very pronounced in the schools, you see.
M: This was 19 ... what? Now, you were born in 1903.
N: Yes, this was approximately between the period of 1910
and 1916 when I attended Gregory Elementary School in Houston.
M: That's good to know.
N: The high school was located also in the 4th Ward on
San Felipe Street, in the neighborhood where I lived. This
school went from sixth grade to the eleventh grade. At
that time they had no twelfth grade in the school I attended.
M: Just three years in high school?
N: That's right. The principal in the school, Mr. James
D. Ryan, was quite an interesting fellow. He was a stocky
man with brown skin, beautiful curly hair, bushy hair. I
recall one day, when I was seated in the rear of the
classroom, I was in the ninth grade at this time. The
teacher stepped out of the room for a short period of time,
and of course, as an adolescent boy, I got into trouble when
I began to talk freely. I was surprised to look up and
suddenly there appeared before me the principal. He caught
me in the act of talking too loud, but I was really caught,
just caught (laughter) in the act among my classmates, too.
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M: Ooooh!
N: He slapped me. Of course, this really embarrasse.d me.
And I never shall forget Mr . Jimmy Ryan, the principal,
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who later was my mathematics teacher, and he used to brag
on me because he f elt I was one of the best students in his
class in mathematics at that time. And when I, many years
later, went to the University of Michigan as a freshman,
he gave me a very high recommendation. I went to the
University of Michigan in 1923.
M: Gee, things were a lot more disciplined in those days .
N: Oh, yes, the discipline was much better in those days,
and, of course, I was very much embarrassed to be slapped
by the principal . I knew I had been well taught.
One of my favorite high school teachers was Richard
Lockett. He walked with a limp because he had a wooden leg,
and he was a very, very straightforward teacher, and
he was also our football coach. I recall that Mr . Lockett
was brought up himself in a very interesting situation. He
used to tell us about his background. His father was a
policeman. After working late at night his father would
get home early in the morning and would go to bed . Before
going to bed he would put his pistol on the dresser. One
morning, while his father was asleep, Richard tip-toed into
his father's room and took his gun , put it in his pocket,
and took it to school where it accidently fell out of his
pocket. Mr. Lockett lost his leg while he was riding on a
freight train. He fell off the freight train and had his
leg cut off at that time. But he proved to be one of my
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favorite teachers at high school.
M: What did he teach?
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N: He taught history . I can remember he had quite a sense
of humor . And yet he was very, very straightforward, a
disciplinarian . He was one of the best. In the school
he was very free with his language. And you know, Mr.
Lockett would instill all kinds of things . He had this
cutoff leg, but you could see him walking allover the room,
and if your feet were in the aisle or something like that,
he would use some term like: "Get those poles out of the
aisle there!" (Laughter) and so on and so on. He was a
fellow, too, when things went wrong, he didn't mind even
cussing you outside the classroom. I was very fond of
Mr. Lockett. He was my football coach, and I played football
in high school. And I recall at that time, we did not have
any equipment except the jersey. Each member of the team
had to buy his own head gear, shoes, shoulder pads and
other accessories needed by a football player. And yet
we had one of the best teams in the city. At that time, of
course, schools were racially segregated all through the city .
M: Only played black schools?
N: Black schools at that time .
M: May I interrupt you for a minute?
N: Sure .
M: Did they call your high school just a Colored High School?
N: That's right.
M: It didn't have a name?
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N: It didn't have a name. Colored High School, that's all
it was. Colored High School.
M: Was there only one in Houston?
N: There was only one in Houston at that time.
were black you had to report to that one.
M: That's where you went.
If you
N: That's where I went to school. I finished high school
ln 1922, the spring of 1922, and I do recall that we
had the commencement exercises downtown at the City
Auditorium. I was chosen the class orator at that time,
and I'll never forget the subject of my oration. It was
"Science, the Community's Transformer," and I felt very
much elated, you see, to be a senior at that time. Of
course, all the commencements were separated--black and
white as such.
M: That is a pretty erudite subject for a young kid.
N: Yes.
M: How old were you? You were in, let's see in 1922 ...
N: That was in 1922, so I must have been 18 years of age
at that time.
M: Eighteen, that's pretty ...
N: And, of course, each class person had a class advisor.
And my advisor was a man interested in Science.
M: Ah!
N: My class advisor was Mr. E.D. Pierson. He was not only
my class advisor, but also my teacher of chemistry and physics.
At that time, although they had very limited laboratory
equipment, I can say that my teacher was a very outstanding
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and dedicated man. In fact, he was a member of my church .
The church to which I belonged was near this colored high
school. It was only about two blocks away. In fact,
my mother and father went to this church to be married
in their day. And my mother was considered one of the
early members, one of the pioneer members of the church.
And they referred to her at the church as Mama Norris.
M: Was it Baptist?
N: Baptist church, on Robin Street, near the high school.
M: Your father wasn ' t a preacher?
N: My father was a minister. What you might call a
country minister and country teacher, also. And he taught
school also down in a place near Bay City, Texas, called
Cedar Lake, Texas. And I do recall when I was, must have
been around 11 or 12 years of age, when I made my first visit
to the country, to Cedar Lake, Texas, to the place near
where my father taught. He had a church in the same
building where he taught. In fact, only a few months ago
I visited that area where my father taught school
back there in the teens, back in 1913, '14 and 'IS.
I visited that area. And I was trying to find some of my
roots. I did meet some people who knew of my father . And
I'm going to follow up on that someday and get me more
information concerning my father's background there in Bay
City, Texas.
Both of my parents were very deeply religious, as I pointed
out a few minutes ago, and I was brought up in the Baptist
Church there in Houston, on Robin Street, in the same, we
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call it ward, 4th Ward, where we lived. I do recall, too,
in my early life that we had to move from where we were in
my original place that we lived. I remember we had to move
from that house to another house because they had a storm
there in Houston, a very bad storm. I think it was 1915,
and our house, a three room shotgun house, was blown off
its blocks.
M: My goodness !
N: And I recall that I attended a Sunday School Congress,
or Convention, in Austin, Texas. And I was a member of a
group called the Cadets. My Sunday School teacher organized
this group of boys. They were trained in marching and
drilling. Each Sunday School had representation at this
particular Sunday School Congress in Austin. Each Sunday
School had a corps of cadets. They had a drill team contest
between the different drill teams from .different Sunday
Schools around the state of Texas. And I do recall that we
were very proud of our rating. I think we got second place
in the drill. We had two uniforms there. We had a brown
uniform, as I recall, we wore around regularly, then a white
uniform that was a dress uniform. We had this large
competitive march on one big occasion. I think the name of
the Park in Austin was Riverside Park at that time. And I
can remember that we were dressed in white uniforms, and I
recall that, when I got back to Houston, I noticed that our
house, where I lived, was on the ground. The wind had
gotten under it and had blown the house flat on the ground.
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M: It didn ' t tip over?
N: It didn ' t tip over, it was just flat on the ground,
off the blocks~
M: My word .. . heavens ~ Was anybody in it?
N: Yes, it so happened that my folks were in it and
miraculously escaped getting hurt. We moved to another
neighborhood in Houston in the same black ghetto in a
11
very low rent area. Behind our house in the fifteen
hundred block on Gillette Street there was a street corner
nicknamed "Buzzard's Roost" where the loafers, bums and
rowdies would hang around. At this residence on Gillette
Street was born a baby sister of mine. Her name was Pearl
Lanette. And I can remember at that same house where we
resided on Gillette Street in Houston my little baby sister
perished from pneumonia.
M: Oh?
N: We were very poor at the time, and it was a very trying
experience for us at that time . In fact, we were born and
reared in a very poor situation. My father, who was
reared an orphan, was a very poor man. He struggled to make
a living, and my mother even took in washing and ironing to
help my father support the family. We had a large family
with five little boys and one girl.
M: Did your father make his living just teaching and
being a minister?
N: That's right . That was .. . for a long period of time.
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M: He didn't make much money out of that, did he?
N: No , actually, Mrs . MacMillan, in later life he got
another job as a longshoreman there in Houston on the
ship channel.
M: I bet that paid a lot better than being a teacher.
12
N: Yes, it did. In later years, in fact, in his seventies
when he passed away in 1959, he was working on the wharf
at the Houston Ship Channel. In 1924, he began as a
longshoreman until his retirement, when he combined his
ministerial and missionary endeavors.
M: Oh, he still did that now?
N: That's ri ght. He still did that, you see, and always
tried to take care of his family. But let me tell you
this incident that happened when I was very young, and I can
recall my mother was taking in washing and ironing, and we
were on our way home from a white neighborhood where my
mother picked up the bundles, clothing you see, clothes for
washing and ironing. And I can recall she had two bundles .
I had one bundles. I must have been about nine years of
age, and we were on our way home, in this white neighborhood
where we picked up these two bundles of clothes. I had a
bundle under my arm and she had a bundle under her arm. But
all of a sudden a pain struck me .
M: Oh?
N: In the chest, and I was in severe pain. So she took
my bundle and her bundle too, and fortunately we weren't
too far from home at the time. She called the doctor who
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came to my bedside at home and, after examining me, my
condi tion was pronounced as pneumonla.
13
M: Oh? Your little sister had already died of pne umoni a .
I bet that scared her to death.
N: My little sister had already died of pneumonia some
few years before. And so that was back in the early days
of my life, and there are many more things I could tell about
what happened during the early days of my life, and now ...
M: Didn 't the boys, eventually, as they grew up, didn't
you all get jobs to help out?
N: You mean . ... you mean
M: You and your brothers, when did you start to work?
N: Oh, oh, earn money. That's a very good question, you
see. Well, the first time, I'd like to tell you about my
early work experience.
M: Okay, do.
N: My first job that I recall that I ever had in my life
was about 1914 with my Uncle Julius at Magnolia Coffee
Company in Houston, Texas. And he was one of the black
workers around down there and he got us doing some chores
around there. They had a lot of children working for them.
And our job was stacking up small cans of coffee . And this
little job lasted about eight weeks. And then I also got a
job, when I was a boy, cleaning a grease trap at times in a
white neighborhood; also cutting grass. I'll never forget a
white lady (her name was), Mrs. Burrell . I used to clean
her grease traps and she would give me twenty-five cents and
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a little bag of food to take home with me.
M: That was the day's work?
14
N: That was the day's work. And then I also, as a boy, was
a newsboy, a regular newsboy. In fact, I was the first
black boy to deliver the "Houston Chronicle" and the "Houston
Post", very popular daily papers there in Houston. That
was between the years 1914 and 1918.
M: During the war?
N: Yeah, during World War I, during the riot when in 1914
they had trouble in Houston. In fact, I had two daily
paper routes, one in the morning with the "Houston Post"
and the "Houston Chronicle" in the afternoon. And they
recruited me somehow or another as the first black boy to
have a regular route.
M: Oh!
N: And we had a supervisor, a very fine white gentleman.
His name was Donald Burr.
M: Did he keep you in your own neighborhood, or did you go
into other neighborhoods?
N: Oh, in our neighborhood and others close by.
M: Right.
N: And I can recall, too, buying a gig, a two-wheel vehicle.
M: Yeah.
N: And I even bought me a mule (laughter) to tow this glg,
and we delivered the papers all through the neighborhood,
and, unfortunately, the old mule died on me.
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M: Oh, dear!
N: (Laughing) And I had to give up throwing papers for
awhile. I had a strong ambition to go to college. I did
get a job right be f ore I went to college to work at the
Southern Pacific Shop in Houston. This job began in 1922.
I can remember I was only eighteen years of age at that
time, but I put my age up to twenty-one . I did this in
order to get the job. And the man laughed at me when I
told him I was twenty-one. Of course, I had a good
physical frame.
M: Yep!
N: I was an athlete.
M: Yes, you had been playing football.
N: And he said, "Okay, I'll give you the job." I worked
there. My salary was about $70.00 a month.
M: A month!
N: My older brother worked at the Southern Pacific. His
name was Brandt Norris, who later went to Morehouse College.
M: What college?
N: Morehouse, the same college that Martin Luther King, Jr.
attended.
M: Yeah, and that's in . ... ?
N: In Atlanta, Georgia .
M: In Atlanta, yeah.
N: I had odd jobs when I went to school.
M: Now wait a minute. You told me the other day, when we
were talking, the marvelous story about why you weren't going
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to go to school down here! I want you to say what
made you stick your chin out and be determined to go to
a top notch University!
N: Well, in the first place, I had a lot of ambition as
a youngster. Somehow I guess it had been instilled in me.
It might have been my family background. It might have
been with four children the ambition of my father and
mother. They wanted us to be somebody.
M: Sure, you bet.
N: And I wanted to reach out beyond just the limited
educational systems that the blacks had in the South at that
time. And I had read about these other schools in the
country, about their great football teams, etc . And I
thought I was a pretty good football player, and I thought
maybe I could play for one of those teams . I wrote to
twenty big universities in the country. And I, being
a poor boy, was determined to select the one which offered
opportunities and help for a boy to go to college. I
wrote to about twenty universities, and each sent me a
catalog, ana I carefully studied each of them. And the
University of Michigan seemed to offer the best opportunity.
It looked like to me a fine school for poor people to attend.
It was an outstanding university that a poor man could
attend. However, I didn't have funds enough to pay for
the first year of schooling and I recall that when I left
Houston to go to Ann Arbor, Michigan, I left on a railroad
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pass loaned to me by a friend of mine where I used to
work at the Southern Pacific shop . He had been working
there a number of years. I got on the train. When the
conductor came along, he just took the pass and recorded
17
it in his memorandum book. I rode ri gh t on to New Orleans.
I got off there; and there I was in New Orleans. I had
to take a train from New Orleans. It didn't go directly
to Ann Arbor, Michigan, but it went to Chicago. And I
considered the idea that maybe I could get some kind of
break on this train. So I went in the yard there at the
railroad station in New Orleans, and I saw this train in
the station there getting ready to leave for Chicago. The
train was called the Panama Limited, considered one of the
upper class trains of the country . At that time it was al l
Pullman.
M: Yeah.
N: And, 0 f course, in those ye ars no blacks were allowed
to ride a Pullman. That was in 1922.
M: Had to be in the coach?
N: Had to be (in the coach), in the segregated coach . So
I got on the diner there, as they were getting it all ready
to leave. I saw some of the waiters, and the chef was
cooking something. I told them that I wanted to go to
Chicago and asked if they could employ me in the kitchen in
some kind of way . And they said (no, but), "We'll tell you
how we can take you." And so I said, "How much?" (I don't
have much money), and they said:"We'll take you for $5.00 ."
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M: Really?
N: So they accepted me on the train, and hid me ~n a
little room in one of the Pullman Coaches. They brought
meals to me at odd hours. They told me: "Now, don't
let anybody see you riding, don't raise up the curtain
there for anybody to see you from inside, because we'll
be in trouble . " So I rode all the way to Chicago, and I
got off there as a member of the crew.
M: They ' d never know the difference .
N: And I got my baggage and then went to the station
there and bought me a ticket directly from Chicago to
Ann Arbor, Michigan.
M: In other words, you went legal from Chicago.
N: I went legal--a real gentleman.
M: (Laughing)
N: And on this I remember ...
M: This is a marvelous story! (Laughing)
18
N: On the Michigan Central, from Chicago to New York, and
I got to Ann Arbor, Michigan, there, I'll never forget. I
got a taxi to take me to the Michigan Union, about which I
had read in the catalog. I was very excited, being a black
boy, never having been in an area where there was integration,
where there was no segregation as such.
M: No problem then?
N: No problem. I went right to the Michigan Union Building
that I visited only a few days ago when I went to my 50th
Class Reunion ..... .
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M: Oh!
N: A few months ago, as a matter of fact in April, 1977. So
I got off at the Michigan Union and tried to get a room
there for the night until I could find permanent lodging
there in the city of Ann Arbor. So anyway, I asked some
fellows standing out in front of the structure.
M: You talked to a white student .. ..
N: I ta l ked to a white student . He advised me to go on to
the downtown area and then go to the Dunbar Civic League
Building. He said there was a place there that particularly
catered to blacks at that time.
M: I bet there weren ' t many in Ann Arbor.
N: No, not at that time. There were very, very few bl acks
in Ann Arbor, Michigan, at that time.
M: No .
N: So I walked to this building. I went up there on the
second or third floor of this building. I went in a room
there where I saw an elderly black man . And I noticed there
a double decker bed, lower and upper, and I told him I was
just off the train from Texas (a Southern boy) going to
school, and I wondered if he could tell me where I could stay.
And he said: "Well, fellow, if you want to get up there,
you're we lcome to stay during the nigh t . " And I thanked him
for it very much, and I did stay there through the night.
And the next day I went in the neighborhood only two or
three streets away from the Court House. And there was a
black family to whom I was recommended, the home of
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minister (his name was), Reverend Edgehill. In fact, I
found out before I left the Dunbar Civic League that he
would rent a room to me. So I went to Reverend Edgehill's
house and stayed there . And then I went to the University
and enrolled and registered there on campus.
I was very interested in playing freshman football,
and so I went out to practice football. I joined the
freshman football squad. In the meantime I got a little
job making up beds at a fraternity house. It was a Jewish
fraternity house connected with the University. It came
under the University supervision. And I went to the
fraternity house and they gave me this job of making up
beds there and I got my place, in fact, they gave me meals .
And so anyway, I went out to play freshman football, and
the third day that I was out, during practice period, I got
my right shoulder dislocated. We had no pads on. I
was trying to make an impression on the coach. His name was
Mather, Coach Mather, M-A-T-H-E-R, and so I was not able to
work, and I went back to the fraternity house and the man
in charge of the fraternity wanted to discharge me, because
I was unable to work . He said he was sorry that he wouldn't
be able to let me stay there longer. And, in the meantime,
I told my coach, with my right arm in a sling, that I
worked at a fraternity house and they wanted to evict me
because I wasn ' t able to work any longer. My coach replied:
"No, they can't do that~" So he took the name of the man
in charge of the fraternity and the name of the fraternity
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and contacted him. I've forgotten the title they used
at that time. I returned to the fraternity and this man
said: "Norris, that's all right. They said they are
go~ng to let you stay here."
M: Were you sleeping there, too?
N: No, I forgot to mention, I had later moved there in
order to cut down on the rent at the Edgehill's where I
was staying . And so, he said, "You can stay here and
get your meals, too."
M: Oh well , that was good .
N: So , anyway, I appreciated that lift. That had to be
during the fall of 1923. In the meantime, I went on
21
and took my courses there. I couldn't write with my right
hand. It was my right shoulder that was dislocated, so
I had to do the best that I could .
M: Didn't they get it back in?
N: They got it back in, but still it was very painful to
me. And, of course, my hospital was free. I didn't have
to pay anything, the University took care of that through
the Athletic Department. You see, I got hurt while I was
on the footbal l field. But, anyway, I went on and did
pretty well in my classes . In fact, I can remember my
English teacher at that time. No, I was taking Rhetoric,
which was separate from English . And I had this course ~n
Rhetoric '''hich stressed wri ting; different forms of
writing--narration, exposition, description, and argumentation.
NORRIS 22
One assignment by the instructor was an autobiography
required to be written by each student in the class, and
the teacher seemed to have been so impressed with mine that
he read it to the whole class, about my days as a boy in
Houston. The instructor's name was Lawrence Conrad.
Anyway, I did well my first year in college, but, the
second year I had difficulty.
M: Oh?
N: With my grades. In fact, I had to be put on probation
during the second semester.
M: What?
N: I didn't have any fear, but I came out with a B, a C,
and, I think, 3 D's the first semester of my Sophomore year .
They had very high scholastic standards at this University.
M: That's what you wanted!
N: So then, but the following semester though, I came out
of it. I made very, very good grades . Nothing below a C.
M: (What did you do? Kind of make a decision?) Is that
kind of like a slump?
N: Yes, of course, I had gotten in. Actually I was feeling
bad. In fact, I was very sick .
M: Oh?
N: And the second semester I was very sick in Ann Arbor,
but anyway, I went on . I made contact with the YMCA . No,
I mean the SCA, Student Christian Association, of the University
of Michigan. And I was interested in Christian work, and I
NORRIS
me t a number of white students--no black students--
not only white, but also, East Indian students there.
They had students from allover the world there, but
there were very few blacks at the University of Michigan
at that time.
M: I was going to ask you that.
N: In fact, I figure there were probably l ess than so
blacks enrolled at that time at the University of
Michigan between the years 1923 through 1927 when I got
my Bachelor ' s degree. But, anyway, I felt very elated
23
over the lack of discrimination on the campus there, and
I did become acquainted with the General Secretary of the
Student Christian Association, who was a man, of course,
employed. He was a middle aged man, Harold Coffman. He
seemed to have taken a special interest in me , even to the
extent of using his influence in having me sent as a
delegate to a national Student Christian Association Con­ference
in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. I was sent as one of
the delegates from the University of Michigan. Harold
Coffman was largely responsible for it. And I had a very
interesting experience there. We stayed there, must have
been four or five days, and we resided in tents there, and
it was a very interesting experience for me--a very
beautiful setting for the conference . We had great speakers
from allover the country. Well, anyway, especially after
I met Mr . Coffman, the General Manager of the Student
Christian Association, of the University of Michigan ,
NORRIS 24
I really enjoyed my extra-curricular activities at the
SCA Building. They had a building off the campus on
State Street--Student Christian Association Building,
University of Michigan. I used to frequent the place and
decided that I would take a friend to luncheon on one
occasion there . They had a restaurant in the basement of
the building. I took, as a guest of mine, William Rushing,
to dinner to this restaurant located in (the SCA Building
at the University of Michigan) the basement. He and I
went down to the basement, and we sat, and sat, and sat
in the restaurant there . We waited for somebody to wait
on us, and we kept waiting, so finally the chef-cook
came out of the kitchen, and in broken language, he said
to us: "We don't serve colored people here." And, of
course, I was very much embarrassed, especially because
this was the Student Christian Association Building, and
I was a boy from the South, and had never had this
experience in discrimination at all up to that point ln
Michigan . And, also, because I had a guest with me. The
next day I filed a complaint with Mr. Coffman, the
General Manager, the man who I had met--a friend of mine.
M: Yeah?
N: And he said: "No, we can't have that. That's not our
business. We leased this to these people -- they're outsiders.
But I'm going to look into that." So, Mr. Coffman did, and
some days after that he informed me that those people
NORRIS 25
had been thrown out. In fact ....
M: Really?
N: Yes, they had go tten rid of those people. Said they
couldn't have anything like that .
M: Not in that kind of organiza tion.
N: Not in that kind of organization, and they were very
much disturbed over that. Now that was my first experience
with discrimination in Michigan. A short time after that,
too , I went on St ate Street i n downtown Ann Arbor. I was
by myself that time . I went on into a restaurant downtown .
I think it was on Main Street in Ann Arbor. I went in to
be se rved , and the man told me very quickly: "We don't
serve colo red people here. " So I was very much what you
cal l disturbed, and uh ...
M: Sure you were.
N: And that was during my second year, I think, when that
happened to me . Actually I was just disgusted.
M: Too much like Texas (laugh), isn't that?
N: Oh, yes . And not only that, I also remember the
University of Michigan coach at that time (head coach) .
M: Sure .
N: I remember his name was Yost .
M: Oh, I remember him . I went to Wisconsin.
N: Yost, he was a great coach at Michigan. Sure enough,
Yost was f r om a state in the South--from Tennessee or
something like that, he claimed. He never played ...
M: Oh.
NORRIS 26
N: In fact, when I first got there, there wasn't a black
man on the football team of the University of Michigan .
M: I can remember that.
N: At that time, that carne out . Of course, that was on
purpose . That was the summer and nobody knew about it. It
was very quiet. In fact, at one time, I was with a fellow
there that I thought was a pretty good player--a black
fellow . He never was used . But .. . .
M: That's funny.
N: And so I can recall, of course, Michigan had some great
players, and I can remember they had an outstanding football
player . That was after Yost. Mr. Yost had left there. They
got another coach. I think his name was Weiman, and they
had an outstanding quarterback. His name was Friedman,
Benny Friedman. He was Jewish, and he graduated in 1927,
the same year I did . And only a few months ago, at the
class reunion in 1977, that was our 50th Class Reunion,
I saw Benny Friedman.
M: You did!
N: Shook hands with him and had a little chat with him, and
he was one of the great All-Americans of the University of
Michigan.
M: Big Ten .
N: Big Ten. And I never shall forget . I have to tell
about the game I attended. Benny Friedman played in it .
There was a great rivalry in football between Michigan and
NORRIS 27
Ohio State (Laughter). And I never shall forget- - it
was in 1926, the fall of 1926, November of 1926--Michigan
played Ohio State, in Columbus. And I never shal l forget
how anxious I was to see that game, and I didn't have
any railroad fare to go over there. I was a member of a
group--the "Fellowship Group", we called it--at the
University of Michigan . It was an integrated group . I
was the only black in the group at the time .
M: Oh?
N: They seemed to have loved me very much. A young man
whose name was Gerritt Fielstra was the leader of our
fellowship group . We went together to the game. For
a number of years we have r eceived a Christmas card from
Gerritt who now re s ides in New Jersey.
M: How did you go?
N: Well, we went on the train.
M: Yeah, you went on the train.
N: We rode all ni ght on the train and arrived in Columbus
early the n ext morning; very early the next day in time for
the game . And we went to the game and we sat together.
About five or six of us of our fellowship group. We were
to ge ther . And we sa t there, and were thrill ed over the game!
We cheered with loud voices for Michigan!!
M: Sure.
N: Just excited . And Benny Friedman was the great star of
the game. And he threw a pass to Benny Oosterbaum for, I
NORRIS 28
believe, the winning touchdown. Oosterbaum was also
an All - American and later became a coach at the University
of Michigan . And never shall I forget that exciting game .
It ended 17 to 16 in favor of the University of Michigan!
So I mentioned that to Benny Friedman only a few months
ago at Ann Arbor, and that had to be one of the greatest
games of his career .
M: Sure .
N: So, there at the University of Michigan, I acquired
a number of friends. One of my friends that I met at the
University was a member of the fellowship group. He was
one of the professors at Michigan. His name was Howard
McClusky, a very outstanding professor in the field of
educational psychology. He was also a member of our
interracial religious group that usually met every Sunday
night in what was called the Upper Room in the Student
Christian Association Building . On one occasion a great
lady from Chicago's Hull House met with us. I've forgotten
her name.
M: Oh, Jane Addams.
N: Yes.
M: Did she?
N: Carne on one occas ion to this Upper Room . Oh, and in our
fellowship group there were several other professors ~n
addition to Mr. Howard McClusky. There was a man in
mathematics, an instructor, too. Dr . McClusky, at that time,
was quite a young man--a very brilliant professor . I have
NORRIS
a picture of him and myself that was taken when I
graduated in 1927- -June, 1927, when I was getting my
Bachelor's degree from Michigan.
29
M: Now, you got your B. A. in Sociology, is that right?
N: Yeah, B.A. Actually, you didn't major, at that time,
as an undergraduate. My Masters was in Sociology. That
was my major in my graduate program of studies .
M: Oh, you didn't major in Sociology?
N: No.
M: You just took general college courses?
N: I just took general college courses. Actually, what they
called the prelaw curriculum. It was a curriculum in
letters and law. And that reminds me to tell this, too.
One of the courses that we were required to take was
Argumentation, and that was one of the courses in Rhetoric.
I took this special course in Argumentation during the
Spring of 1926. I was a junior at that time. The man
who taught t he course was a good friend of mine. His name
was Oakley Johnson, a very outs tanding fellow- - a Phi Be ta
Kappa. And he was quite lib eral in his view s at that time.
So much so, that I think that someone in the University
higher command didn't care too much for him because they
figured that at th a t t ime he was too liberal. In fact, he
was the founder of what was called the Negro-Caucasian Club
of the University of Michigan. I have some information on
that club that later I'll share with you. But, anyway, he
NORRIS 30
was my teacher of the course in Argumentation in the
Spring of 1926. And I can remember he seated his students
alphabetically, and I was the only black in the classs at
the time, and after he called my name he called another
name--a fellow whose name was, I think, Priest. My
name was Norris. He was Anglo , and he went up to
Professor Johnson and whispered something in his ear. He
told him that he wasn't going to sit by me.
M: He did!
N: Later Professor Johnson told me, out of class privately,
that this fellow was from St. Augus tine, Florida .
M: What did he say?
N: That young man didn't want to sit by Negroes. The
teacher said : "Of cour se, I didn't insist on his sitting
next to you."
M: Well, he didn't insist?
N: No, he didn't. He put him in the back, way in the
back row, and the young man that sa t next to me- -a white
fellow was from Kansas, a redhead from Kansas--was a
very nice fellow. And he and I became friends. But, anyway,
during the time of this course, they had in Detroit, Michigan,
the famous "Sweet" Trial . This was the case of a black man
who had moved into a so-called white neighborhood.
M: Now spell Sweet.
N: Sweet.
Nand M: S-W-E-E-T.
M: Okay .
NORRIS
N: Dr. Ossian Sweet was his name. In fact, I had met
Dr. Sweet during some previous years there. He was a
member of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, of which I was a
member. I became a member when I was at Michigan. This
fraternity is an outstanding black fraternity. As
a matter of fact, the Mayor of Los Angeles, California,
Mayor Torn DArdley, is a member of that same fraternity.
M: Oh, was he? Yeah?
N: In fact, I know him personally. His first trip to
31
a national meeting of the fraternity was right here In
San Antonio, when I first met him. He hitchhiked to San
Antonio in 1939 to attend the national meeting of the
fraternity . It was the first meeting in the South of the
Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity. Dr. Sweet was a member of
the Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, and I used to go over to
Detroit, Michigan, during the Christmas season to work
at the Post Office . I looked up Dr . Sweet, and stayed in
his horne on several occasions that I was over there. I
went, I think, about three winters. And I carne to love
Dr. Sweet and his dear wife, Gladys, and so that was how
I met him. He was accused of moving in a white neighborhood.
In fact, Dr. Sweet was accused of killing a white man, a
member of a mob alleged to have rocked his house.
M: Excuse me, I'm trying to watch the tape.
N: Professor Johnson said to us one day when the Sweet
trial was going on, when I was taking this course . . .
M: Yeah .
NORRIS 32
N: ..... In Argumentation. "I'll tell you. I'll call the
Judge to see if he would permit our entire class in
Argumentation to attend the Sweet trial." And the
judge's name was Frank Murphy. He was judge at that
time, and later became one of the Justices of the
United Sta tes Supreme Court.
M: Oh.
N: He was judge of the court that handled the Sweet trial.
So Dr. Johnson contacted him. Judge Murphy replied: "Yes,
I'd be glad to have you come over as my guests; the whole
class of Argumentation to this trial to witness the case."
And the big lawyer in the defense was Clarence Darrow.
M: He was !
N: And, yeah, he was the chief counsel . And so, anyway,
we went over to the trial. The whole class went over to
the courtroom and the judge, of course, knew we were going
to come. And when we went in to the courtroom the judge
cleared the front two rows of seats in the courtroom for us
as his guests. And I was the only black in the class. When
we sat down there in those seats, everybody was looking
at us and wondering "who those folks are."
M: Well, it was a black man on trial.
N: Yes, a black man was on trial. The courtroom was just
full of people, especially Negroes who were standing
there along the walls, and so, when I sat down, a policeman
came up to me. He thought I was an overflow in the crowd.
He didn't know I was a member of the special group of guests .
NORRIS 33
He carne to me and said: "You'll have to move." One of
my classmates said: "Oh, no, he is a member of our class."
So, the policeman said, "I'm sorry." The judge sent
word to Professor Johnson that he would like for us to
corne back to his chambers during the recess period. He
wanted the whole class to corne back .
M: Qh, what an experience!
N: So we went to the back to his chambers and he asked
if we were having a nice time, etc. We told him we
enjoyed it very, very much . During the intermission
period, I had the pleasure of meeting Clarence Darrow.
M: You didn't?
N: Clarence Darrow. I said to him: "My name is Clarence . "
And he said, "Qh, yes, we have the same name . " He
was "Clarence" Darrow and I was "Clarence" Norris.
M: Sure .
N: And, so I had him to autograph something for me. I
can't find it . In fact, that was back in 1926 when he
autographed it on a memorandum.
M: I'll bet you'll corne across it sometime.
N: But, anyway, during the Sweet trial, I can remember later
I went back over, to Detroit while the Sweet trial was
gOlng on. 1 stayed in the horne of the Sweets. I think they
finally picked out his brother, Henry, as being the one who
was accused of firing the gun that killed the man .
M: Qh, dear!
NORRIS
N: In the trial it was brought out that a mob was trying
to drive him out of the neighborhood. And so that was
one of the high points of my experiences when I went to
the University of Michigan - -the Sweet trial of 1926.
M: Well, did he win or lose?
34
N: Well, he won the case. I can remember, too, during the
time of the trial, I went over to the black YMCA in Detroit.
I met James Weldon Johnson. He was a great Negro writer in
those days. He was attending the trial also . He and I
talked about the Sweet trial. I asked him: "How do
you think it's going to come out? What do you think is
going to be the outcome?"
M: Oh.
N: Mr . Johnson said, "I think the Sweets will win the case ."
M: He really did. Was it a fair trial?
N: It was a fair trial, but, of course, the prosecuting
attorney did all he could to win over the jury.
M: Sure .
N: And one of the things that I remember the prosecuting
attorney said : "You fo l ks went all the way to Chicago to
hi re a man to come to defend this case." He was talking
about Mr. Darrow. He did everything he could to prejudice
the jury. And I never shall forget during the trial
Clarence Darrow went right up before the jury and he told
each of them, one by one: "I can look at you and see that
you are prejudiced." He said: " I know you can't help that."
M: He did?
NORRIS 35
N: He said: " I know you are prejudiced. " And then when
he got through t alking (I was sitting right near the jury
box) he got right before the whole jury and yelled out:
"I know each one of you is prejudiced ." He said: "If
there had not been race prejudice, we would not have this
case!" And he said in a very soft voice: "Members of
the jury, please let there be no prejudice in this
case . " (He repeated his statement) . I think the plea
that Darrow made was very convincing to the jury.
Darrow did have an associate attorney with him--a very
brilliant man . I've forgotten his name. He seemed to have
been a more educated type of person than Darrow was.
M: Oh?
N: Very eloquent. He was more eloquent than Darrow. But
Darrow appeared to have been quite an expert in handling
juries. The prosecutor brought out that the Sweets
should not have shot the night they did . They should have
waited awhile, and should not have shot out in the crowd.
M: Yet, you can see why he did.
N: So, Clarence Darrow told the jury: " Gentlemen of
the jury, Mr. Toms, the prosecuting attorney, in his
summation said that they should not have shot the night they
did . " Darrow said: "Gentlemen of the jury, If I had been
in that house, I would have shot the night before." I
was highly thrilled over the entire case. I am sure that
the other members of my c l ass really enjoyed the trial . That
was a real experience! And, so anyway, I went to the
University of Michigan and I received my Bachelor's degree in 1927 .
NORRIS 36
And then I returned in the summers to work on my Master's
Degree .
M: Oh, you worked during the winter?
N: I worked in the winters and returned in the summers of
1928, '29, and ' 30. At that time I was teaching at a
college in East Texas--Marshall, Texas -- Bishop College.
M: Oh, what were you teaching there?
N: I taught Sociology and Education.
M: You were getting some kind of decent salary by then,
weren't you?
N: No, I think my salary there at Bishop was around $150 . 00
a month at that time .
M: Sure that's not ... !
N: And so, the President at that time, Dr . Rhoads, when
I went to Michigan during the summer of 1930, was also
a student at Michigan . He went there in the summers . Dr.
Rhoads was a very brilliant man . He was the first Negro
President of Bishop College . I received my Master's
Degree at Michigan in 1930. And while I was at Bishop
College, the President seemed to have been impressed with
me, and he said: "Mr. Norris, I'd like for you to start
working on your Doctor's Degree." He said: "We will help
you." And so, he contacted the General Education Board at
that time.
M: Of Texas?
N: No, the General Education Board's Office was, I think,
Ln Virginia. This was a national board.
NORRIS
M: U.S. Oh!
N: This was a nat ional board, you see, a private board,
(I think).
M: I see ... a private board.
N: .... was suppor t ed by the Rockefeller Foundation,
Rockefeller money, you see, came to the General Board.
37
And they handed out fellowships, you see, to poor students
allover the country at that time. Mr. Favrot, the
Executive Secretary of the G. E. Board, and Mr. Rhoads,
the President of Bishop College, recommended me for a
fellowship to study for one year at the University of
Southern California. And, in fact, I recall being
interviewed by Mr. Fwrotof the General Education Board.
I was successful in getting the fellowship to study for
one year at the University of Southern California, all
expenses paid. It covered the school year 1932-33. This
was during the Depression period. I got married in 1931.
In 1932, the fal l of 1932 to be exact, my wife and I
drove in our car to Southern California from Houston,
where we lived at that time.
M: Where is Bishop, what town?
END OF TAPE I
BEXAR COUNTY HISTORICAL COMMISSION
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Dr . Clarence W. Norris, Dean Emeritus
of St . Philip I s College
INTERVIEWER: Mrs . Esther MacMillan
DATE: October 20, 1977
PLACE: Oral History Program Office, Institute of Texan
Cultures
THIS IS A CONTINUING INTERVIEW WITH DR. NORRIS. TAPE II:
N: I was married in 1931. It was during the Depression
years . And I do recall that, right after I got married,
we were really deep into the Depression at the time.
I got married and I was teaching at this Baptist College,
supported by the American Baptist Home Mission Society
of New York City. This organization really was the
chief financial support of Bishop College at that time.
And they ha~ to depend on outside donations from churches
in their particular area and convention . I can remember
the fall of 1931 . President Rhoads had an emergency
meeting of the faculty of Bishop College, Marshall, Texas.
We had already received our contracts for the year. I
remember my salary was $150.00 a month at that time. I had
a contract for $1500.00 for the year. And at this October
emergency meeting of the faculty, the President announced
to the faculty that he was very sorry, but he would not be
able to pay us a full salary. And, of course, I had just
gotten married at the time. He said that he would like
NORRIS 2
for us to subscribe 25% of our year's salary . He had
forms for us to fill out, statements in writing, indicating
we were contributing 25% of our year's salary . On
the basis of those signed cards, President Rhoads thought
he could get some financial help from some agency . I
remember we had one faculty member who arose in the
faculty meeting and said: "No, I have already made
commitments and cannot accept any cut in my salary."
I signed my card , 25% cut of my year ' s salary, however,
during the year, I don't believe any faculty member received
the promised 75% of his salary. In most cases on account
of the Depression, students were not able to pay their
tuition fees . This was the fall of 1931. One professor
refused to accept the cut. He was accused of not
cooperating .
M: Oh, he was.
N: He was dismissed. I'll never forget. He was a
young professor . E. B. Chandler was his name . He coached
the debating team at that time. He refused to accept a
cut, and hired a lawyer. His lawyer notified the
President that he had to pay the teacher he fired .. every
cent of his contract ... every penny of it. And he did.
M: He did!
N: And that was around October, 1931. The professor
stayed on the campus that year, and part of his salary
was his apartment on the campus that belonged to the school .
He stayed on the campus the whole time. And the others of
NORRIS
us that signed were suffering, you see .
M: Was your wife working? Was she teaching?
N: At that time, my wife was teaching in Houston. Let
me see. Do I have that right? Yes, my wife was teaching
Ln Houston at that time. I recall some weekends she
would visit me from Houston. She would ride the train
all night.
M: But you had two salaries.
3
N: Yes, she had a salary. Her salary really did help.
She started teaching before I did. My wife began teaching
Ln 1926, right after she got out of the Un iversity.
M: So, you went out to California?
N: Yes, anyway we bought our first car in 1932, in Marshall,
Texas . Bought a Chevrolet at the contract price of $749 .00.
My wife was, also, expecting at this time. My wife's
Houston doctor, a woman obstetrician, had Mrs. Norris
wear a special garment during our long automobile trip from
Houston to Los Angeles.
M: Your wife was Georgia born?
N: No, she was a native Texan,as I am. And at that time
we had to drive up through Ft. Worth, Texas, because they
had a flood in West Texas, so we had to drive a number of
miles away from the direct highway route between Houston
and El Paso. And I did all the driving. The roads were
bad ... so many were dirt and not paved.
M: I'll bet.
NORRIS
N: That was in '32. So many dirt roads in Texas.
Not only that, we couldn ' t get accommodations at that
time . There were no accommodations, no motels, no
hotels for Negro tourists. We had to stay in private
black homes . Our first stop was at Breckenridge, Texas.
We stayed at the home there of a friend of mine that I
taught at Bishop in summer school. He was a retired
4
school principal to whom I taught Education at Bishop
College one summer. So he took us in. We. felt very
comfortable there in this home . From Breckenridge we drove
to EI Paso ... dirt roads all the way .
M: That's a long distance.
N: And we went across some places where the water was
high. I mean the bridge was out . .. just a little wooden,
temporary bridge across the water. We were really
frightened. So we got to EI Paso. Of course, we had the
name and address of the people in whose home we were to
stay in EI Paso . We spent three nights in EI Paso. I
remember it was through Labor Day . From EI Paso we
drove on into Phoenix. While travelling, especially through
the desert area of Arizona, we experienced very intense heat.
Our car was not air conditioned. It was so hot in Phoenix
we left at 3 o ' clock a.m. and drove on across into San Diego.
Then it began to get a little cool when we were travelling
through the San Diego Mountains. Then we drove from San
Diego right up the coast line to Los Angeles, westward
toward the Pacific Coast .
NORRIS
So I entered the University of Southern California during
the fall of 1932 . I was particularly interested in
enrolling in the University of Southern California because
they had an outstanding Sociology professor. His name
'''as Bogardus.
M: How do you spell that?
N: B-O - G-A-R-D-U-S . . . Emory Bogardus, who was from the
University of Chicago . I think he was one of the men who
organized the Sociology Department at the University of
Southern California.
5
M: Why did you choose Sociology? Can you remember when
you began to think "this is the subject I want to explore?"
N: Remember I started out in a curriculum of Letters and
Law .. a combination . As a Junior I took a course in
Sociology at the University of Michigan one summer.
And I was so fascinated with that course, I decided to go
on and major in Sociology . I got rid of the curriculum
of Letters and Law, they called it . I switched over to
Sociology and I started majoring in it the summer of 1927.
I started majoring in Sociology in the graduate school of
the University of Michigan.
M: Your Master's Degree was in Sociology?
N: In Sociology. And then I went on to Southern California
where I met Dr. Bogardus - -Emory Bogardus. One of the things
they did after I got there was to select a committee of
Sociology professors to supervise my studies for a Doctoral
Degree. I took various courses they recommended me to take.
NORRIS
They e xamined my scholastic record from the University
of Michigan, especially my courses in Sociology for which
they gave me full credit . It seemed that my graduation
from the University of Michigan helped me. They were
apparently very impre ss ed that I had attended the
6
University of Michigan. I had no trouble having these
courses transferred to the University of Southern California .
I think that one of the first courses that I admired at
the University of Southern California was one in Urban
Sociology taught by Professor Neumeyer, whom I visit
when I go out there. Last fall I visited him when I was
in Los Angeles . His wife passed away two years ago. He's
quite a suffering man ... with the loss of hi s wife. I
think they were married 56 years.
M: He's not still teaching?
N: He retired several years ago . I think he was a little
bit disgusted because he had to r etire real early. I think
he had to retire at 65. It was forced retirement. He wasn't
ready.
M: You we re only funded for one year, weren't you?
N: Yes, so I returned to Texas after the first year. I
went back to Bishop (1933). We spent the entire year
September 1932-August 1933 in Cal i f ornia. In
fact, we were in California when they had a very bad earthquake
in March, 1933. This was our first earthquake experience.
Our first child was born in Los Angeles on December 30, 1932.
I went to my first Rose Bowl game on January 1, 1933. My
NORRIS 7
wife was in the hospital at the time. I went to her
and tol d her: "I don't think I ought to go." And she
said: "Oh, go on." "I don't want to go," I said . She
insisted that I go to the game, so I went to the Rose Bowl
game and I remember the University of Pittsburg played
the University of Southern California, who won 35 to O.
I wrote to the President, Dr. Rhoads, who wanted me
stay out there another year and told him: "No. Not now
that I've got this family and made arrangements with the
people from whom I bought the car that I would continue my
payments the second year ." You see, the first year I was
out there, they cut my monthly payments on the car .. a very
small amount ... $25. a month or something like that. And I
think that the arrangement was when I returned to Marshall
to teach another year, '33 and '34, that my payments would
be such an amount to take care of the balance. So I had
that obligation and I told the President that I had to
return to my job. In the meantime, that spring of 1933, in
one of my classes in Sociology, in the University of
Southern California, a white lady came to me and said:
"Mr. Norris, would you like to work during the summer? We
have a summer job out in Watts . We need a social worker
out there. We need a colored man in Watts." There was a
10 t of blacks in Watts, and she said: "I have con tact with
a lady who is the General Director of the Social Service
program out there and I thought of you." I was the only
black man in that class . So I said: "Yes, I'd be interested
NORRIS
In taking the job." So that summer (1933) I accepted
the job in Watts in Social Work. So anyway, I took that
job there and I enjoyed it . So finally, after about two
months, I told my supervisor, Miss Clarke, that I had to
leave to go back to Texas .. that I had a job back there,
and had to pay for my car. So I returned to Marshall.
M: So you did go back?
8
N: I went back to Bishop. After I got back there at
Bishop, the President of Bishop told me: "Now, Dr.
Norris, (no, he called me Professor Norris), we want you
to divide your time in teaching between Bishop College and
Wiley College . Wiley was a Methodist College, located
on the southside of Marshall. Bishop was on the northside
of Marshall ... a Baptist College. They were really
competitive. There was a professor on a fellowship to teach
at Wiley College and Bishop, and they wanted him to
divide his time equally between Wiley and Bishop, and they
wanted me to make up the slack. At that time one of the
regular Wiley teachers was on a leave of absence . He taught
in the field of Education . I also had a graduate minor in
Education, so the Bishop and the Wiley Presidents got
together on arrangements fo r me to teach in the mornings,
I believe, at Wiley College and the afternoons at Bishop .
There was great rivalry between the two colleges . Oh, the
Presidents were just fighting one another.
M: It was interesting for you to do a job like that, wasn't it?
NORRIS 9
N: Yes, but it was bad on me, because the two presidents
were at loggerheads all the time. Their athletic teams were
just terrible when they played each other. The northside
of town were Bishop people .. Baptists ... black Baptists.
The southern part of Marshall, Wiley College, were
black Methodists supporting Wiley. And I used to be
afraid to go on the Wiley College campus because I was
from Bishop . I remember the first year I had my new car .
We went to a party one night at Wiley College. I was
teaching there at the time. I left my car parked there and
while we were at the party someone bent one of the fenders
of my car. This really did disturb me.
At Wiley I had a chance to get acquainted with a lot
of Wiley teachers and students , so I became somewhat torn
between the two schools. And the Bishop people thought
that I was l eaning toward Wiley, and the Wiley folks,
of course, knew tha t I was a regular Bishop tea cher,
and there I was. So we left there and returned to Hous ton.
I got a job as a Social Worker during the summer of 1934.
The country at that time was in the throes of the Great
Depression. Under our new President, Franklin Roosevelt,
the Federal Government spent millions of dollars to help
f ee d ,clothe and house millions of people out of work. Tha t
was the beginning of our broad social security program.
Unde r Franklin D. Roosevelt ' s administration one large Federal
agency was called the Reconstruction Finance Corpora tion.
I worked in social work in Houston for several years. In
NORRIS
fact, during that first year I went into social work, I
also taught night school in a junior college in Houston.
It was called the Houston College For Negroes, under the
Houston Independent School District. My salary was one
dollar per hour.
M: A junior college, was it?
10
N: Yes, it was a junior college. It was one of the fore­runners
of the present Texas Southern University . It later
became a senior college . Dr. O'Hara Lanier was Dean at
that time. I had thi.s p a rt - time class at night in Houston
and during the day I had the job as a social worker under
the Houston-Harris County Relief Board.
M: What's become of your Doctor's Degree? You're half
way through .
N: I didn ' t tell you. I went back to summer school, in
California. You see my first year out there was 1932-33 .
I attended the summers of 1935, '41, '43, '44, '45, and
'49. I finished writing my doctoral dissertation during the
summer of 1950. I took my final oral examination by
my special committee of which Dr. Neumeyer was chairman .
That was November, 1950 . About 1949 I had passed the
required foreign language examinations in French and Spanish .
M: Oh, you diu. That's the way you did it .
N: In fact, one time I was sick and almost gave up completely.
I had a new family and all that. Dr. Bogardus, the
chairman of the Sociology Department, had written a lot
of books . In fact, he had written more books than any
NORRIS
professor at the University of Southern California at
that time. He was quite a scholar when I visited him
many times in his home after his retirement . I remember
mee ting him on the campus one summer. I said: "Dr.
Bogardus, I tell you things have just gotten so rough on
me. (It must have been the summer of 1943 or '44.) "I have
to give up and throw in the towel." He s aid to me: "Mr.
Norris, you just stay with this thing. I believe you'll
make it . Do not give up." And, so I decided "I'll just
tackle it." He was my major professor at that time.
11
So I went on back and kept going in the summers and finally
got through.
M: What did you do your dissertation on?
N: I have a copy of it. It was: "A Comparative Study of
Selected White and Negro Youth of San Antonio, Texas, With
Special Reference to Certain Basic Social Attitudes."
M: What an interesting .. . did you pick it? Did you decide
what to do or your advisor?
N: I decided the title and Professor Neumeyer told me:
"Don't take anymore courses. I want you now to concen tra te
on your dissertation--gathering all your material, your
questionnaires, etc." I had a problem. I had a group of
black students I interviewed and a group of Anglos. These
were high school students and junior college students. You
see, I was working with junior college students. I had all
the blacks I wanted. You know at that time San Antonio College
NORRIS
didn't admit blacks. But I was able to get questionnaires
handed out over there by one of the teachers at SAC . The
white hi gh school I selected was Brackenridge Senior High
School. At that time the principal was Mr. Enos Gary. I
12
also went to Jefferson High School to have some questionnaires
handed out. The students weren't to see me at all . None
of the students saw me. They had some special place where
the teachers could do it. But the principal of Jefferson
High School wouldn't l et me do it. He was very nice, very
courteous about it . At the high school that was 100 %
Mexican, the principal also refused (Lanier). He said:
"No, I can 't. I can't let you stir up my students." I had
questions in the questionnaires about attitudes toward
race, family, religion, etc . In later years I went over to
Lanier High School and saw a picture of Mr . Loftin in the
hall, and later I saw Mr. Loftin, the President of San Antonio
College. Have you ever heard of Mr. Loftin?
M: Sure. They named a building for him.
N: Mr . Loftin, at one time,was principal of Lanier High
School . .. . some years before he became President of San
Antonio College . Mr . Loftin was President of St. Philip's
College when I firs t became employed there in 1943.
M: He was?
N: He was President of SAC, but at that time SAC did not
admit black students. In 1942 San Antonio College and
St . Philip's College were under the auspice s of the San
Antonio Independent School District . In 1946, they had a
bond issue election which was s uccessful. They organized
NORRIS 13
and set up an Independent Junior College District. It was
called the San Antonio Union Junior College District. When
St. Philip's was first taken in in 1942 in the San Antonio
Independent School District, they made Mr. Loftin President.
And Miss Bowden, who for many years had been the President,
was made the Dean of St. Philip's and Mr. Loftin was over her
at that time.
Well, anyway, in 1946, when St. Philip's and SAC became
independent of the other districts and had their own district,
I was appointed Dean of Faculty. Miss Bowden was made
Dean of the College. I had charge of the faculty and
the curriculum, and Mr. Loftin said he was going to give me
all the tough work and not let Miss Bowden be worried with
it. She was assigned to take care of the grounds and the
buildings. And Miss Bowden used to get mad at me because
people would tell her she was just a glorified servant. "That
guy, Norris, has the power. He has the authority." Some­times
she'd call me into her office and would tell me what
people would say to her.
M: It says here in the material I got over in the library
at St. Philip's that the depression had ended and Dr. Norris
knew that soon his job ... You haven't talked about the
Works Progress Administration--how you happened to come over
here. You skipped that. Let's not forget that. You have
to get to San Antonio.
N: Well, I'll back up at this point. I think that's very
important. After I left Bishop College, I worked in
Houston from 1934 to August, 1938 when I came to San Antonio.
NORRIS 14
During the spring of 1937, I was unemployed for a period
of several months . Harris County Judge Roy Hofheinz dis­charged
a number of social workers, including many blacks
at that time . Of course, I was one of those that was cut off.
That's a long story. But anyway, I got a job with WPA in
'37, as a senior field supervisor of Negro Adult Education
in Harris and Galveston counties, over two counties . I
was working out of what they called the Houston WPA District .
The State of Texas was divided into WPA Districts, and
one of them was the Houston District. And I worked on what
was called a WPA Education Project. My supervisor at that
time was Johnny Lebus . He hired me as a supervisor over
Harris and Galveston County WPA Negro teachers. I would have
to give him a written report of my visitations to each
of the classes taught by a black adult education teacher.
Of course, he was a white man --my immediate supervisor--
over the WPA Education Project in the Houston District.
Later a lady became our boss after Mr. Lebus left.
Her name was Elizabeth Siddall. She was from Anderson,
Texas. She seemed to have been slightly prejudiced.
She never called me "Mr. Norris" .. . always Professor Norris
or C.W. Norris.
M: You were Dr. by now? Didn't you have your Doctor's Degree?
N: No, this was 1937. I didn't get my Doctor's Degree until
1950.
M: Oh, that's right. Sure, because you came to San Antonio
in 1938.
NORRIS 15
N: When, as a local WPA Education Supervi sor in Houston,
I was visited by a black man who was State Supervisor
of WPA Negro Adult Educa tion. His office was here in San
Antonio . His name was Roby W. Hilliard. He visited all
the projects in Texas that involved Negro teachers, and
he also visited white supervisors who had black teachers
under their supervision . Of course, at that time , no
black supervisors could have white teachers under their
supervision. So one day, in the summer of 1938, Mr.
Hilliard came to my house in Houston . He said : "Mr.
Norris, I want you to take my place as State Supervisor."
M: I bet you were surprised.
N: Yes, I was . He said : "You are considered the top Senior
Field Supervisor in the State of Texas, among all the local
areas. I want you to come to San Antonio t o take my place ."
I said: "I've got to see about it. I've got a family."
That was the summer of ' 38, and this Mrs. Siddall was al l
elated that "Professor" Norris got this promotion . She
wanted to know if I needed any money to help me to get to
San Antonio. I came here on the train in August of 1938 to
take over the position of State Supervisor, Negro Divis ion,
WPA Adult Education . I reported to headquarters in the tall
building downtown. At that time I think they called it the
Smith-Young Tower . I reported to a Mr. Huser. He was
the State Director of WPA Education . The State Administrator
of WPA over all the WPA programs in Texas was a man by
NORRIS
the name ~f H.P. Drought, a very prominent white citizen
of San Antonio, well known by many of the pioneers here
in San Antonio. Education was only one of the projects .
16
There were many others: Writer's Project, Sewing Project,
Nursing Project, etc. H.P. Drought had the reputation
of being very broad in his attitude t owards blacks at that
time. And while I was State Supervisor, I remember after
I had been here only a few weeks, I got a telegram from
Beaumont, Texas. That was in the Houston WPA District where
I got my beginning. It invo lved Mrs . Siddall, my former
supervisor.
M: Siddall. Do you think?
N: Yes, I think she had a great deal of love and admiration
for Negroes "in their place" so to speak. She always
called the blacks by their first names, which I guess was
all right, had she addressed the whites likewise. She
was of the old regime of segregation in the South. But
anyway, Mrs. Ferrand, a black supervisor, the only one who
had charge of the black WPA Education teachers in Beaumont
and vicinity, sent me the telegram . She attended a meeting
in Houston where I met all these supervisors in education
of the Houston District . We had some conferences there and
I met them there. She was considered one of the top super­visors
in her area. But anyway, she wrote this telegram
complaining that she had been fired, that the costs in the
area had to be cut . Mrs. Siddall considered Mrs. Odie Lee
NORRIS
Ferrand to be the best of all her supervisors. Mrs.
Siddall was probably pressured to get rid of this lady who
apparently was very much disturbed about it. So I sent
my boss a note about the te l egram. I said: "It's a
17
shame. This lady is considered one of the best supervisors
in the State and she had to be fired." So he said he'd
look in to the matter, but, of course, he couldn't do
anything because, I don't think Mr. Drought, himself, could
do anything about it, because at that time, I think, from
Washington on down, there was strong segregation at that
time.
So I stayed on t he job and I can tell you another
incident that happened. I believe it was during my first
or second month as State WPA Supervisor . They had a
workshop for all the WPA teachers in the Dallas District
in Dallas, and I was up there because they wanted the State
people to work with them in this workshop. We had whites
on one side of the room and blacks on the other side of
the room.
M: Really?
N: The blacks were entirely separate. There was a white
supervisor from the State Office. Her name was Nettie Bell
Rice. She was a very lovely person. I can't forget her.
She was from Arkansas, some little town. She was one of
the most informed people on Negro literature that I had ever
met. She was a very fine person. She was one of the first
persons I met when I came to San Antonio. She was so
courteous to me and so helpful. She was sent to Dallas to
NORRIS 18
help get the workshop organized--these black and white
teachers and so on . She had a little trouble up ther~
even before the workshop began)with the Dallas WPA District
Supervisor of Education. And actually the man over the
Dallas District, the administrator, another big job, was
quite prejudiced.
During one of the sessions of the workshop, the general
session the first day, they made a motion a t the and in
this big auditorium--white on one side, blacks on the other.
The man who was presiding said: "When this meeting is over,
all you darkies go over next door for a meeting in the
'Barn' ." There was a building next door called the
"Barn." When he said, "you darkies" all the black
teachers said; "Did you hear that?" They began to panic.
I told them: "Just be quiet, be calm. This will be
taken care of. We don't want any violence." I said: "Let's
go over next door." After we got over there, Mrs. Rice came
over to tell us she's sorry it happened, etc. So I came
back to San Antonio, and shortly after that, I was
informed the Dallas WPA Education Supervisor had been
discharged. He and Mrs. Rice had had a clash . And what
made it bad, three or four months after that, Mrs. Rice
left.
I left the \\IPA Program when it went down in 1943.
M: What do you mean when you say the program went down?
N: The whole WPA Program collapsed.
M: Ended?
N: Ended, you see, allover the country. The government
NORRIS 19
stopped financing the program.
M: In other words, the money ran out.
N: The money ran out.
M: And that's when you got ...
N: Miss Bowden got in touch with me before the program
went down. She heard about it. She contacted me. She
knew I was working on it. She knew I was experienced in
the field of education, had taught in Bishop College,
Wiley College, in Houston College, etc. She invited me to
come to St. Philip's. In fact, I have some correspondence
from Miss Bowden in my file at home that I treasure.
M: In other words: "The Depress ion had ended and Dr.
Norris knew that soon his job with the Works Progress
Administration would be terminated. Miss Bowden had
indicated that she needed an administrative assistant.
And when St. Philip's College became more financially
stable in 1942, she approached Dr. Norris about coming
to the College . He was hired in September, 1943 as
Assistant Dean and Instructor in Education, Sociology,
and Spanish." * Hey, I didn't know you taught Spanish.
N: Yes, I taught Spanish. I took a lot of Latin in
High School even before I went to college. I took some
in college, too, however, Spanish got away from me. I
didn't follow up on it at all.
M: But you did teach it.
* Quoted from material procured at St . Philip's College
Lib rary.
NORRIS
N: I taught it in extension school for awhile. We had
the Sam Houston extension school a t St. Philip's and at
one time had Prairie View extension school. Dr. MacKay
taught a class out there. That's when I first met him.
So I went to St. Philip's in the fall of 1943. At
that time St. Philip's had less than 100 students.
M: It did?
N: About 95 students. And we were struggling at that
time at St . Philip's quite a bit, because we were not
wanted by the San Antonio Independent School District.
20
Miss Bowden had to really beg them to take the school over .
Even back in the late 1930's she was asking them to take
the school. She couldn 't pay the teachers, and so I
think the school would not be there if Miss Bowden had no t
done what she did. No question about that in my mind . I 'm
convinced.
M: It says that somewhere. I have some research here on the
development of St. Philip ' s, and it said she was called the
"Savior of St . Philip's" because she stood by "through
thick and thin."
N: She actually was. I am a witness to that. When I went
there the situation was that St. Philip ' s was like an unwanted
child.
M: A lot of people wanted to close the school .
N: But what made it really necessary was that, at that time,
blacks were not allowed to go to San Antonio Coll ege , a
public supported junior college , by taxation.
NORRIS
M: Was it sort of a private school?
N: It started out as a private college.
M: Was it Episcopal?
21
N: It started out as private and continued from 1898 up to
1942. Miss Bowden for many, many years was the President.
When Mr. Loftin was elected to take over as President of
St . Philip's and SAC, Miss Bowden begged Mr . Loftin to
accept me over there, in 1943. She said: "He is a young
man, has a future." So Hr. Loftin met me and he seemed to
be impressed with me. Mr. Loftin did not seem to like Miss
Bowden and I don't think she thought too much of him.
H: He didn't?
N: Haybe I shouldn't have said that. I may want to
strike that from the tape. But anyway, he did not like
her and I can see why. Hiss Bowden was very powerful. She
had been independent. As the President of the College she
had previously dealt directly with the Board of Trustees .
For many years she had contacts with some of the leading
citizens of San Antonio.
H: Highly respected.
N: Hi ghly respected by everybody. Hr . Loftin had been
brought up in the customs of the Old South. In fact , he
would tell you that he was prejudiced. He admitted the fact
that he was prejudiced.
So when I came on the scene Hr. Loftin seemed to wel -
come my coming into the program. At times I had the impression
that he would have liked to get rid of Hiss Bowden.
NORRIS
That shouldn't be on the tape.
M: No, we should be honest.
N: One time he said to me: "Mr. No rris,(that was before
I had my Doctor's Degree) you stick by me, I'll stick by
you . Miss Bowden goes around me ." She was going directly
to the Board.
M: I can just see her, even though I never knew her!
N: I recall that on one o ccasion during a conference of
22
the three of us it seemed like she almost wanted to strike
him. She used to tell me: "I just can't stand him .. white
trash ... just can't stand him." To make a long story short,
Mr. Loftin wanted me as Dean of Faculty in the new program
that began in 1946. Miss Bowden was Dean of the College and
I always did my best to respect her at all times.
I know I had several cases of teachers that were very
non-cooperative. They said: "get rid of him." I always
told Miss Bowden about them, but she never would be agains t
me or for me. As Dean of Faculty I was solely responsible
for the recommendation of new teachers, discharges, and
promotions. I remember at one of the Board meetings many
blacks were in attendance. Some seve r ely criticized me
because I had recommended the dismissal of some teachers
stil l on probation. They defied me. They would go to
Miss Bowden and s he'd say: "I don't have anything to do
with that. That's Mr. Norris' business.
Mr. McAllister, I've been knowing him for many, many years.
NORRIS 23
M: I know . He mentions you in his interview. We've done
tapes of him.
N: He was Chairman of the Board at that time . On one
occasion a lot of people, including some from NAACP,
came to the Board meeting, and Mr. MaAllister said to me
before this particular Board meeting: (whisper) "Now
where did these people come from?" I said: "I don't
know . "
M: You're going to be too modest to say this, but in this
material that I have, it said: "Many of his acquaintances
described him as a s trong, but calm, even-tempered person
who exhibited diplomacy, tactfulness and resourcefulness
under very trying circumstances. His detractors viewed
him as being too cautious." And then it goes on to say:
"He was i nstrumental in upgrading faculty professionalism,
expanding the curricula, and providing much of the leadership
in the desegregation of the College. Also, during his
tenure, St. Philip's College was first accredited by the
Association of Southern Colleges and Secondary Schools."
N: That's right . There's a long story there.
M: So you sure ac complished an awful lot in your time.
N: When St. Philip ' s was first accredited, Mrs. MacMillan,
they had a double scale of accreditation--one for blacks and
one for whites. When the first committee came to check on
the school, on that committee I can remember one of the
members of that committee was Dr . Mahan, the President of
Our Lady of the Lake College. He later became a member of
NORRIS 24
the San Antonio City Council. The committee submitted
a favorable report on St. Philip 's. In later years when
the Southern Association adopted a single standard (there ' s
a history of that) we had to work very hard to measure up
under the same standards and credentials as in the other
colleges in the Association . And I was on the scene when
that regime came in. In 1960 I was elected the President
of the National Association of Collegiate Deans and Registrars,
a predominantly Negro organi za tion. Everybody was talking
about the new single standard.
M: And you were President of the National ...
N: I was President of this National Organi zation.
M: Quite an honor.
N: Our college went through quite a period you see. I
think this organization finally went out of existence. I
wanted to attend a meeting in 1967 and Dr. Moody was President
at that time ... Wayland P. Moody, you've heard of him?
M: Yes .
N: President of SAC and St. Philip's . He said: "Dr. Norris,
the time has come when you're going to have stop going to that
other meeting that is predominantly black. You can't go
anymore ."
M: Why?
N: At this time we had the new civil rights laws in effect.
Segregation in public schools had been declared out, in
1955 or somewhere along in there.
M: Why should that prevent you f rom going to a meeting?
NORRIS
N: They were paying my expenses.
M: Oh, money!
N: Money was the problem. I plead with him: "I was made
President last year. Let me go this year ." That was my
last time.
M: And that's when you retired?
N: No, I retired in 1974.
25
M: You retired from the Dean's job. But you went on teaching?
N: I went on teaching.
M: You couldn't bear to give up teaching?
N: That's right. I was just so involved with it I couldn 't.
Something about my love of teaching is why I continued to
teach. I want to get this on, too. Those last five years
of my tenure at St. Philip's, to me, were really my most
enjoyable.
M: You'd done something, hadn't you?
N: Well, as a teacher, as a classroom instructor, I got
such feedback from my students . I enjoyed my t eaching. I
got a lot out of it. Very rewarding for me.
M: You didn't have all tho se administrative responsibilities.
N: That was it. That was off my shoulders. St. Philip's
during the decade of the 60's had all kinds of students, but
we had only one incident. During that time, only one. A
fellow came in. He wanted to take over the school. He had
all kinds of petitions . This student was a member of the
Student Council at St. Philip's at that time.
M: Oh, this was a student.
NORRIS
N: Yes, a studen t . He wanted to take over, wanted this
change made, that change made, and what have you.
M: One of t hose !
26
N: He was influenced by one of the faculty. So I had that
trouble, that kind of thing to deal with . Faculty would
come around, so confused .
M: They were hard days for everybody, weren't they?
We've got a little more time left on this tape. This
is, of course, invaluable--what you're talking about, Dr.
Norris . This is the sort of thing that my hope and my
goal of this particular section of the Oral History Program
iS , to get when we get through: a comprehensive picture of
black life style, the development of education and how
it began and what not. You are the first one I've done and
we have done only one very short interview with Mrs. Sutton­Taylor,
but we hope to talk to people all through the
community who will . In this Oral History thing, I think of
fifty years hence, when an historian comes to the archives
and wants to know what went on in San Antonio SO, 60, 70 years ago
and \Ve're going to have something to tell them, so that
they will know what happened. So this is what ' s back of this .
Now I have a pretty comprehensive his t ory of St . Philip's
College, developing from 1899, when the Bishop bought the
land in La Villita for $400.00 . I am going to get this into
some sort of workable shape and attach this to your file.
Any material that we can include, I'm going to put this in
your file . Have you got a current photograph? We need that .
NORRIS
N: Yes, I have one. It think it's April, taken this
last April, 1977.
27
M: We have to keep thinking, not of today, but when we're
all dead and gone . .. for people coming.
END OF TAPE II
, •..• NORRIS,CLARENCE N.,DR. INDEX
bi ograp~i cq l, 1-37 , tape 1; l-27, tape 2.
<.
Here is a heroic document of one black man's progress from
a ghetto in Houston t o a Ph.D and many honors .
Born in Houston, it tells of his life in the fourth ward ghetto;
his efforts to get an education, his parents, his jobs to help out ;
the struggles and ha rdships of the college years , first at An n Ar bor
from 1923-1927, when he earned a B.A. and a M.A . in 1930, the discrim­ination
but al so the good t imes. Teac hing to earn money to continue.
Then pursuit of a Ph .D in Sociology at the Un ivers ity of Southern
California, teaching again to make ends meet, doing social service
wo rk, returning to USC seven times to ea rn his Ph.D.
San Antonio from 1938.1943 with WPA Adult Education . Always the
segregation probl~m. Then to St. Philips College;in 1946 appoi nted
Dean of Faculty. Retired 1974.