THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Changes in San Antonio last 25-30 years
INTERVIEW WITH: Blair Reeves
DATE: 19 August 1994
PLACE: Judge Reeves' home
INTERVIEWER: Sterlin Holmesly
H: Interview with Blair Reeves, former Chief Justice of the 4th Court of Criminal Court of Appeals, and former Judge of Bexar County, August 19, 1994, at his place, at his home, and this is Sterlin Holmesly.
R: Okay. My name is Blair Reeves. I was born and raised in San Antonio and lived here all my life, except the time that I was in the Marine Corps. I'm seventy years old; born May 23, 1924. Attended public schools here; graduated from Jefferson in 1942. And I joined the Marine Corps ... is that what you want?
H: Sure, uh-huh.
R: I didn't know if you wanted to go in more about my family? Joined the Marine Corps in 1942. But a lot of the football team of the class of '42 ... the '41-'42 Jefferson football team, and a lot of the students ... of course the war was December 7, 1941, we all heard that in school, and in our senior year through the intercom system. Principal Rogers had the foresight to know this was going to be something momentous, and classes were abated and we listened to the president speaking. Some of the guys left after that, joining whatever services. I finished. I flirted with the idea, but my mother wanted me to finish high school and I wanted to finish high school. So anyway, I finished high school and took a short shot at college at that time, went up to NTAC in Arlington. It was a junior college at that time, North Texas Agricultural College, it was a branch of Texas A&M. My plan had been that I would play one year of football there and then go play at A&M. But anyway I didn't make my grades, and so October 2, 1942, I joined the Marine Corps. And went to San Diego, and another kid in my class, a guy named Ted Sarvis, who later got killed on the Marshall Islands. But anyway, after bootcamp we went to the rifle range and all that, went out to Camp Elliott for replacement battalions. They were replacement battalions at that time, this was February now of 19 ... January and February of 1943, and the replacement battalions being formed, after bootcamp and after a little bit more training perhaps, to go to the South Pacific. So February 26, 1943, that's what? four or five months or so, after I joined the Marine Corps, I found myself on board a Liberty ship heading for the Pacific. And twenty-three, I think, days later landed in New Caledonia and was a Marine replacement battalion so I guess we were going at that particular time. We were building a camp, not only for ourselves, but for the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion. And the commanding officer of the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion at that time was Allan Shapely. Colonel Carlsen had been the commanding officer before, the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion. He came down, they had a band, they played some "shipping over" music, Stars and Stripes and the Marine Corps Hymn and all that stuff like that. He said, I remember very distinctly, he got upon a jeep, we were knee-deep in mud, it was raining all the time over there it seemed like, and said, "You guys have come ten thousand miles to see some people. ... or three thousand ... something ... to see some people. You join my outfit, you'll see them in three or four months." And so I joined the Raider Battalion, and trained with them there and November 1, we landed on Bougainville, and was in that campaign.
H: That was a nasty jungle campaign, wasn't it?
R; Nasty jungle campaign. Rained every day, you could set your clock by it ... 4 o'clock. I know one time, upon on, I think, Pilau Trail, we were dug in, Ace Company, 2nd Marine Raiders, at a forward outpost. And we no sooner'd been dug in, about 3:30 or 4 o'clock in the morning, we got ... the Japanese were coming down this trail and they hit us. And here we were, a company of people behind us, I don't know how many thousand feet or whatever, with the main troops. And then it started raining about that time. We were in a low area, I didn't realize at that time, I don't guess the company commander did either, but anyway, it soon filled up with water and for the next twenty-seven hours I was up to my neck in water.
H: My gosh.Blair Reeves
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R: Yeah. You'd get out ... they were dropping mortars in on the machinegun fire and all that stuff like that. And somebody'd get hit, we'd get out and of course take care of it and things like that, but ...
H: Where could you take the wounded with all the water?
R: It was difficult to take the wounded. The corpsmen would try to patch them up and do the best they could. And we lost some men too; lost quite a few men. Our guys died. So anyway, about twenty-seven hours later, the next day about 6:30 or so, getting the hell out of there, we're going to have an orderly retreat. And we inverted. We were in a half-moon kinda of a defense, a half-circle defense and in back of us was this big creek, just surging with water. And the natives had a couple of coconut trees across the way like as a bridge. And so we formed and dropped back down there and went across this bridge and fought our way back. Got our way back to the lines, and ... so anyway, that was Bougainville. And then we came on back and they busted up the Marine Corps Raiders; they were controversial. Here you had a crack outfit or an attack outfit within what the Marine Corps considered was an attack outfit or a landing operational outfit kind of a ... we were supposed to be modeled after the British Commandos. And I know one of our companies did make a commando-type raid on Makin Island; went in on submarines, surfaced and went ashore and killed Blair Reeves
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some Japs and raised a little hell and came out twenty-seven hours later I think and got on the submarines and left when they came back and picked them up. But anyway, the Marine Corps Raiders at that time were four battalions, and they took all four of those battalions and they formed them into one regiment, 4th Marine Regiment, and we were reactivated, the 4th Regiment, in honor of the Marines that had fallen in China and in the Philippines at Corregidor. The 4th Marines were called "The Old China Marines."
H: Yeah. "The Old China Hands."
R: "The Old China Hands." Colonel Shapley was the CO. We stayed as the 1st ... as that ... and the 22nd Marines came in and we were the 1st Provisional Marine Brigade and we - my company and a couple of other companies - when I was in the 4th Regiment ... got aboard some World War I tincans - destroyers - and took us up above Rabaul, I don't know if you ever ...... Pacific or not ...
H: I know Rabaul.
R: ... or not, you've read Manchester's book called "Return to Darkness," but anyway, Rabaul - there was a bunch of islands up there, and above Rabaul. They took us up there and about two or three days these World War I tincans, destroyers, would make twenty-five, twenty-six, -seven knots, I don't know how fast they would, but they were fast for us. And we went ashore in rubber boats and hit the Blair Reeves
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beach and went around hostile fire; I think one of our own men were killed by our fire, but the Japs had moved off.
H: But Rabaul was still a Japanese stronghold?
R: Oh yeah, it was still a stronghold. And we kept fearing they were going to come up there and kick us off this island. But evidently they ... maybe they were busy by that time fooling with MacArthur's troops in New Guinea. I don't know. But anyway, we stayed there until we got relieved and came on back. And then trained again and went to Guam. And went ashore at Guam, at that time I nearly drowned going ashore, but that's another story. I don't know if you want me to put that in or not. Am I going too much into detail?
H: Well, let's ... you were on Okinawa.
R: I got hit on Okinawa ...
H: That's where you were so severely wounded.
R: ... on May 20, 1945. We secured Guam and came on back and then after that - I'd been overseas over two years at that time and they said we'd get back in two years but had too many seasoned troops. So we went on to Okinawa, 4th Regiment, and went ashore April 1st, Easter morning, 1945. And May 20th, fifty days later I was wounded outside of Naha, little town. I think we were trying to take Half-Moon Hill.
H: Yeah. And you took some machinegun rounds, in the Blair Reeves
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back, ...
R: Yeah. I took some automatic, some type of an automatic weapon, that's where I felt. It was a rifle slug. And I came on back and came home and went to St. Mary's ...
H: But you had to adjust to life in a wheelchair.
R: Yeah. That's when I got into a wheelchair in 1945. And of course, yeah, I was in a Navy hospital for about two years. Well, from May 20, 1945 to February 1947, twenty-some odd months.
H: So you were away from home more than four years, away from San Antonio.
R: I was away from home more than four years. Got off ... left on the Southern Pacific Railroad October 2, '45 and came back in latter part of February, first part of March 1947, on the Southern Pacific Railroad.
H: Yeah. '43 to '47.
R: Anyway, when I came back home, couldn't talk about politics, I didn't know I had a life in politics. But I got transferred down to the Naval Hospital in Corpus and they wouldn't let me out of the service; they wouldn't let any of us out of the service. ..... coming by and saying "Good morning, how are you feeling, Reeves?" And I'd say, "Fine, thank you." and the doctor would go on. So I wanted to get out and get my life started again and Ruben Lozano, was a friend of the family. And Ruben Lozano, well, his kids, BobBlair Reeves
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and Harold, had played football with my brothers, so we all knew the Lozano family. And Mr. Lozano, I asked Mr. Lozano to write Paul Kilday, who was then chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, to find why in the hell they wouldn't let me out of the service. And so about ten days after I asked him I was getting my papers out of there. Of course he was the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee. So they sent me up to McClosky Hospital in Temple. And my brother, when I got in said, "I want out of that hospital." And they said, "Well, you just got here and anyway", I said, "I'm a civilian and I want to get out of this damn hospital. I can do that now." So my brother came up and got me on a Saturday, he had a day off of work, and he came up and got me on a Saturday and driving back to San Antonio he said, "I've got you enrolled in SAC." I said, "Hell, Bubba," I said, "I was planning on taking off for at least two or three months and getting back in San Antonio and looking around a bit." I said, "You know, relax a little bit." And he said, "Well, you've been laying on your ass for the last two years you ... " (laughter) "It's time you started doing something." So anyhow, I started at SAC and got my sixty hours, met my wife, Betty, there, and then married Betty. Betty and I were married over ... well we were married in '48 and she died two years ago.
(phone interruption)Blair Reeves
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H: You'd met your wife, Betty, and ...
R: Yeah ... married her, and Betty died two years ago last April. But, anyway, she was going to SAC. So ... I went to law school at Baylor my first year of law school, after I finished SAC. Got my pre-law there; all you needed was sixty hours. And we went to Baylor and stayed a year ... my first year in Baylor. At that time, Sterlin, during that time, Congress had passed this Disabilities Act, whatever they call it, where the disabled veteran could get up to ten thousand dollars, if he was in a wheelchair, toward a home, if he would match it or if I had seven thousand they would match it with seven thousand, etc. But we'd bought a lot out in the Hill Country Village and just had paid for it and all I had was my pension. So anyway, to make a story short, we knew we were going to live in San Antonio so we came back to San Antonio and went to talk to the dean of the faculty of the St. Mary's Law School, which was downtown on College Street. And all the classes were upstairs. So my ... he said, "Yeah, if you've got a passing average." ... well I did of course, and so I transferred down here to San Antonio and went to St. Mary's and the classes, as I said, were all upstairs, there were a bunch of steps. So they have a two-way communications system, and I sat over in the corner of the library with earphones and I would listen to the classrooms discussion and the lecture, and they would call Blair Reeves
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on me to recite a case, he'd come in and say, "Will you cite what is the law here?" ask me questions that way, and I'd take all my examinations in that corner of the library. And so I finished up in law school that way.
H: What year did you finish law school?
R: I finished law school in 1951 and got my license in May of '51. And then I ... a guy and I ... Walter ..(name?).. and I started a little office. I knew no politicians, Bill Hensley was the DA at that particular time, and I didn't know anybody to go to work for or anything else like that. So we started out our little practice just out on West Avenue, and I came upon an idea ... that I found out the JP out there was making ... oh, two hundred and fifty or three hundred dollars a month as a JP. They were only meeting about two hours a week and he was a barber. His name was Tony Anthony. So I filed in the Democratic Primary against Tony Anthony for JP of Precinct 8, which covered my area out there in Hill Country Village. I remember him coming in and telling me, he said, "Son, why do you want to be JP?" I said, "Well, it's a good job." I said you only work two or three hours a week and you're making two hundred and fifty, three hundred" ... whatever they were making a month. I said, "I don't have anything against you, Judge, but I'd like to have that job." And so he said, "Well," he said, "You'll never be able to make those inquests, you're in a Blair Reeves
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wheelchair, and you can't make it with a wheelchair, the inquest." I said, "Yeah, I can do that." He said, "Well, hold off for two years and I'll give it to you. I got other plans." I think he wanted to run against ole Bob .(name?). for county commissioner. And I remember just specifically saying, "Judge, that job's not yours to give." (laughter) And he said, "Well, I'm going to beat you." And I said, "Yeah, you might, but bring your lunch, it's going to be an all-day job." So anyway, here I was a disabled veteran in a dadgum wheelchair and a local guy. I beat poor Tony like a drum. I got eighteen hundred votes, over eighteen hundred votes, and he got about five.
H: Wow!
R: But all my old high school buddies came out and worked the polls and knocked on doors and was calling people out and getting people to come vote for me, and telling them that they would carry me out in the field so my inquests, don't worry about things like that. He can handle it.
H: So that was the fall of '52?
R: That was in summer, the primary of 1950. Let's see, I got my ..., in 1952, you're exactly right.
H: Yeah, a year after you graduated.
R: Yeah, and I took office January 1, 1953. I held that job for six years. And it was during my term of office, between the year of '52, no, I ran for re-election, then twoBlair Reeves
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years hence, our offices were two years at a time, ...
H: Two year duration.
R: Duration. Yeah. Terms. And had that constitutional amendment somewhere, I guess, in '53 or '54, it must have been on the November ballot, so they passed ... (speaks to someone leaving) ... passed the constitutional amendment where we got four years. So I automatically got four years. So I had that six year term. In one year, Sterlin, I made fifty-three or fifty-two inquests. And my little precinct 8, which was the smallest precinct in Bexar County, I don't think there were five or ten deaths during that year, but a JP could go all over the county, and these guys, Johnnie Ogden and Buck Jones, no disrespect for them, but quite often they weren't available on their phones when the cops would call. So the SAPD always knew that I answered my phone and they'd always call me. "Hate to call you again, hate to call you again." But I'd get up out of my bed and go make those inquests, and you know most homicides and things like that take place in the middle of the night somewhere.
H: Right. Yeah.
R: And that was ... the first one I made was an airplane crash out here off of Borg Field Drive, and there were three people, I think three people died in that airplane crash coming into the airport. And then the police when they Blair Reeves
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wanted to have a bunch of secret indictments, had been returned and they wanted to get some warrants, they'd call me sometimes at eight o'clock at night and say ... "Hey, can you sign a few papers for us?" And I'd say, "Yeah, come on in." And they'd come on out to my home in Hill Country Village and I'd sit at the kitchen table and issue warrants based upon complaints that were filed in the court. And boy, I'd say, "Why do you guys always pick on me?" "Well, if you go to the courthouse it might leak." So, and you ... I was one that would work if it was dark, I guess, is what it was. But as a result of that, Sterlin, I was endeared to the police. And I always got the SAPD's support for every time I ran for election.
H: And I'm sure that spread to the Sheriff's office.
R: Oh, yeah. I had good support of that. And anyway, after six years on the job, I was tired and I left it. My law practice was coming along. I was over there with John Daniels. And one time in there after that six-year term, I mean after that six years as JP, I ran for county judge of ... county chairman of the Democratic party against Jimmy Knight. And Burt Thompson, who was later Bankruptcy Judge, ran for the county chairman's job too. So three of us ... it must have been in '62 ... was that Kennedy's? ... November '62 is when Kennedy came into office?
H: No.Blair Reeves
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R: Or was it '60?
H: He came in in January '61. He won in November of '60.
R: Okay. Then this was 1960 because ... the story that follows. But anyway, I ran against him for Democratic chairman in the Democratic primary of 1960, against Jimmy Knight, and Burt Thompson ran against him too. And Bill Sinkin came up and backed me first time ... I guess the first time I'd met Bill Sinkin because Jack and I had ... Jack Daniels and I had gone to school together. But anyway, that Jimmy Knight beat me like a drum! He beat Burt and me, without a run-off. Just really tromped me. And it was a very humbling experience. (laughter) Later on that November he got together with Burt Thompson and me, we all formed a triune of chairmanships. Because I was supposed to be the liberal candidate and Jimmy the conservative and Burt's a moderate ... or whatever it was! I was chairman of the Kennedy-Johnson Club for President and Vice-President. A And, of course, Kennedy won. And then one time in there I wanted to be ... Sam Jorie was going to run against Charlie Anderson and that's when - I don't know if you remember or not - but Charlie was the incumbent commissioner and he announced against Charlie Anderson when he had more than a year left in his term and he was automatically kicked out of office because he had announced. You remember that law? Caught me too in '60 ... caught me too later on, but he'd Blair Reeves
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come over and asked me to run against Charlie Anderson. I said, "I'm not going to run against Charlie Anderson, you think I'm a fool? Who could beat him?" So I said, "Give me my JP job back." Joe Westbrook had been JP and took my place and he'd gone to Waco, so there was a vacancy out there. So as the custom was in Bexar County, if you had a vacancy in your JP district, not the downtown JPs, but the rural JPs, what we called rural JPs, the commissioner where that vacancy occurred would make a recommendation to the Commissioners Court and they would all go along with it. They would approve it. So Joey recommended it that I get returned to my JP job and I got the job back. And ... but I had to run that November against Frank Vaughn. And Frank Vaughn beat me. The Republicans had really taken over. That's when the Republicans really started ... Jim Helland ... was it Jim Helland, or was it? ... yeah, I guess it was Jim Helland came on the Commissioners Court, first Republican on the Commissioners Court, about that time. But Jim Helland won the Commissioners Court race and Frank Vaughn won the JP race. And the Republicans had broken through. I was the first Democrat to lose to the Republicans, I think in the history of Bexar County. Which is a nebulous honor, uh?
H: They didn't give you a plaque, did they?
R; They didn't give me a plaque for that. (laughter) So Blair Reeves
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anyway, I went back to practicing law. And in '66 I ran for county judge, and won.
H: And how many terms did you serve as county judge?
R: I served ... I was in my third term. I served over eleven years as county judge.
H: And one of the signal moments in that came on the vote that established the county hospital as a teaching hospital so we could get a medical school here. Now, tell me how that came about.
R: Okay. Now that's what I think you really came for anyway, but ...
H: That's part of it, but I've heard different people tell different versions of this and I wanted the "man's" story.
R: All right. Well, what happened on that occasion was: prior to 1966, the legislature had passed this law which would allow Bexar County to tax the people of the county, ad valorem taxes, on hospital ... as far as their hospital district tax was concerned. Give them the option to allow them to assess it at a larger amount. Let me give you an example, if you had a ten thousand dollar home, it would be on a market value, it would be on the tax rolls at twenty-five hundred. We a assessed property at twenty-five percent of market value at that time and then it fluxuated from year to year. At that time it was twenty-five percent of market value. If the voters of Bexar County voted in this Blair Reeves
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referendum too ... favorably ... they could raise that assessment, on those hospital district tax purposes, to fifty percent of market value. So that election had been called in 1965, late, I think, December whenever the legal time that was. And the election was to be held January 17, 1967. Okay. At that time the teaching hospital of Bexar County, out there at the medical complex, was about sixty-five percent complete; fifty or sixty percent complete, somewhere there. The Medical School was about the same way. The people of Bexar County had voted a bond issue of five million dollars for the building of a new county hospital. The county government took that five million dollars and went to the federal government and got ten million dollars, what they call Hill-Burton Funds, because at that time we needed new hospitals in the United States, more hospitals and more medicine, more doctors and things of that nature. And that was the incentive. So the building, as I say, was fifty or sixty percent completed at that time. We'd spent our bond money and we were using these Hill-Burton Funds and the Medical School was the same way. Okay. On January 17, 19... , I think it was 17th 1967, but January 1967, the people voted no. And here we had no way, at that time, when we said no, we're not going to double our assessment; there's no way in God's world you can open that hospital. Well, Frank Irwin, I don't know if you knew anything about Blair Reeves
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Frank?
H: Yeah.
R: Well, Frank Irwin was a very ...
H: Chairman of the Board of Regents.
R: Chairman of the Board of Regents and a very persuasive and a very volatile, tough guy. And he said that we needed to do something about this hospital. How are you going to fund this hospital? How are you going to open the doors? Are you going to get it completed? How are you going to open the doors if you don't have the money to operate the staff or to buy the supplies or anything of this nature? And you've got to find a way. So I said, "I don't know how we're going to do it Mr. Irwin, but anyway the people have said no." So he finally called a meeting of the ... well, he asked me to call the Commissioners Court. This was before the open meetings and all, ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
R: ... ready to go?
H: Yeah.
R: Commissioners Court met with John Peace and Frank Irwin. John Peace at that time was chairman, was on the Board of Regents at the University of Texas, later was chairman. So helpful. So we got up in this suite in the Gunter Hotel and ate lunch, and then Frank Irwin posed the Blair Reeves
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question to me: "What are you going to do about funding that hospital?" And I said, "Well, we don't know. The people turned it down." So he said, "Judge, let me tell you something." And on the court at that time was Albert Pena, Ollie Wurzbach, Jim Helen, A.J. Ploch, and I was County Judge. And he said, "Let me tell you, Judge, what I'm going to do. I want, within," X-number of times, two weeks or three weeks or whatever he said, "a plan on how you're going to raise the money to operate that hospital. Because I'm going to tell you what if you don't do this. I'm going to take that school, my building over there and I'm going to make a nursing school out of it or I'm going to make a dental school out of it." He said "my school." He said, "I'm going to make a nursing school or a dental school out of it. You're going to have that hospital over there and the federal government is going to start asking you for funds and you ain't going to be able to pay those funds and you've got five million dollars worth of your own money in there and then you owe the federal government some money." He said, "I don't know what in the hell you're going to do, but it's going to be an unfinished edifice to your administration." Or something like that!
H: (laughter)
R: (laughter) And he was talking straight talk to me. I said, "Well, hell. The people have spoken." And so he Blair Reeves
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said, "Well, I want something and I want to know immediately." And so we started ... we left ... what are we going to do, you guys? And they all looked at each other and then the Chamber of Commerce started having meetings. And the Express started having editorials: something needs to be done, let's make some decisions. And one thing and another. And I remember meeting with one time, Bob Rolf was president of the Chamber of Commerce and Mr. Pat Zachry, of course, Walter McAllister, John Peace, I can't recall who. And they said, "Well, Judge, what are you going to do?" So, I don't know if it was Frank Irwin or who, came up with the suggestion: see, go back to the legislature and we'll ask the legislature to give the County Commissioners Court the option to double the tax and then you'll do it down here and we'll get our hospital and we'll get it going. And I said, "What in the hell are you talking about? The people have spoken! Mr. Irwin." And he said, "Well, give me an answer, give me an alternative." And so ... I remember Mr. Zachry coming up to me and said, "Judge, what are you going to do? You've got to do something." And I went home that night, or the next couple of nights or so, and I said, "You know, Betty, you've heard that expression 'somebody needs to do something about that, something ought to do something about this.'" I said, "Yes." And she said, "Yeah, ...... question." I said, "Well, that someone is me." (laughter)Blair Reeves
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H: (laughter)
R: And I called Mr. Irwin, I said, "I polled my group." And I did, I asked the commissioners, I asked, individually, "What would you do about, what do you think about doubling the tax?" And Albert Pena said, "Hell no, I'm not going to do it." And Ollie Wurzbach said, "I don't know." Jim Helland said, "Sure." And I told him, said, "..... what we can do about this, it's a done deal, I think we can get the damn thing finished." And so A.J. Ploch said, "No way, buddy, no way." So I went back to Ollie and Ollie said, "Yeah, I'll vote for it." And we got that legislature through and we were all on tenterhooks that somebody on the local delegation would fall out of line. But they all stayed hitched and I ... of course, to pass local legislation up there, if a local member of the delegation ... legislative delegation from Bexar County would object to it, they'd kiss ... shove it out of the legislature.
H: Yeah, the local and uncontested.
R: Yeah, you got local and uncontested. And it shot through there and Governor Connally signed it. And then everybody ... then it was made public ... leaked out or whatever happened. Of course it had to come out anyway. And there were more and more phone calls. Don't you vote for that thing. It's outlandish. And one thing and another. Started getting all this heat about, don't raise Blair Reeves
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the tax. And we had to send it down for a public hearing, I think, according to statute. We sent it down for a public hearing, or we did on our own, had it on a Saturday morning. And that probate court filled up, Sterlin, people were standing in the aisles. And at that time Carter .(name).. was Dean of the Medical School, and .(name).. was on the staff, Howard Radwin, all the medical faculty showed up. They had been teaching out at Trinity University and had been working at some of these hospitals like the Green, and things like that. Trying to get the nucleus started and they all wanted ... showed up. I remember Charlie Becker was down there from Handy Andy and Mr. Zachry was there in the courtroom. And Walter McAllister was there. And boy, then the "antis." And they talked for I don't know how long, but anyway, after we finally came up for the vote, everybody'd said their piece, I made the motion and Alan seconded it, and we started calling the roll. And, of course, you call first Albert Pena and he votes no. And then Ollie was next, he voted yeah. And then Jim Helland voted yeah, and Ploch voted no. And I told those people, said, "You know," said, "I might be county judge for only one term but during that term I'm going to be county judge and I think this is in the best interest of Bexar County, and I vote aye." And Jim Helland and Ollie stayed hitched and were just as important in the whole thing as I was, of Blair Reeves
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course, 'cause it took three votes. But I got the brunt of the criticism. I guess it was more proper since I was county judge. But after that, boy, the phones rang off the hook and it got so bad there ... I know one evening I just took Betty - they'd threatened my life and all that stuff -and we went down and checked into, with our two kids, in a motel. Stayed there just to get out of the house. The next thing we had to do was have a Board of Equalization. At that time the county judge ... the County Commissioners Court was the Board of Equalization. I don't know if you recall that or not, ....
H: Yes, I do.
R: ... but ... so we sent out notifications and we got in thousands of people that wanted to appear before the Board of Equalization. Sterlin, I really would like to go back and check to see the number, but it was thousands of people that wanted to come before the Board of Equalization. And they sent in this little card to do it. So what we did, we got ... we set two hundred in the morning and two hundred in the afternoon, five days a week, for that particular time, and Permanent Probate Courtroom. And I would roll in that dadgum courtroom and I had to go from the back all the way up to the front where the bench was, get up on ... I couldn't come in off the side or anything, I had to pass through all those people and get up on that ... on that Blair Reeves
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bench. And I did it myself too because ... I really asked Jim Barlow, the DA, to do it and he said, "Well, .(name).. , he did it once, he had somebody, one of his assistants doing it for awhile and they raised so much hell I started doing it myself." But I would go in there and do it, and it was the best thing in the world that I ever did. I would go up there and I'd tell those people on the bench, I said, "Listen Folks, I'm glad to have you come down here to protest your taxes, if that's what you want to do, protest your taxes, but this is a Board of Equalization. Now if you have a problem with the value of your property we certainly want to hear you, but if you're here to complain about the hospital taxes because it's been doubled, you're just going to have to get me in the next election, 'cause there ain't nothing you can do about it, and nothing we're going to do about it." And so they would ventilate and then about ninety percent of them would leave. And we had our Board of Equalization.
H: Well, you know the one thing that has intrigued me all these years, is that you never lost a race after that.
R: Me too.
H: I mean people were ... you were in their memories as the guy who doubled their hospital district taxes ...
R: Yeah.
H: ... although I don't think the money itself was that Blair Reeves
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much in those days.
R: I don't believe it was either.
H: But you have never lost an election.
R: That's right. And the interesting thing about it, Sterlin, that I ran again in '70. And in '69 a committee made of Roy Barrera, John Peace, Bob Sawtelle, Jack Daniels, Sol Casseo, Walter McAllister Jr., and Dr. Bob Hilliard, they were a committee to raise me funds. And that's a pretty broad based committee.
H: Yes it is.
R: To give me an appreciation banquet. And they got the support of the community and they filled that Villita Assembly Hall up and raised, take home, after the payment, after they owed ..., after everything had been paid, turned over a check to me about twenty-one thousand ... twenty-two thousand dollars. And I had all this ... and then I had the newspaper's support. I had ... you know, the newspaper came out and advocated the double of the referendum and ...
H: I got a lot of phone calls too.
R: I bet it did. I bet you all did get a bunch of static over there. But I had tremendous support. And I think what happened was, I raised that money and the community saw the support that I had and the people that really involved themselves in politics, you know, the guys that are always on the periphery, I'm going to run if he's ..., he's Blair Reeves
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probably been backing a guy for a certain length of time or working the polls or doing something, somewhat knowledgeable, I just said, "Man, I don't think I can beat him this next election." Even in spite of that, and I didn't get ... the only opposition I've had ... in 1977 I know ... in 1974, when I ran for re-election again, there was a guy in a wheelchair that ran against me.
H: I don't remember him.
R: Oh, I cannot remember his name either. I guess if I looked it up I could find it, but I know I could. But
anyway, and Bob Roth had told me - this is a little story I want remembered - he said, "If you ever have an opponent, I'll raise you enough money to get re-elected." And so here it was in 1974 this guy had filed against me. He and Steven Harwich filed against me. Do you remember Steven Harwich did that?
H: Yeah.
R: He filed an an Independent. And he got kicked off the ballot. But that's another story; if you want to hear it I'll tell you. I have it. But anyway, this guy ran against me and I beat him. I want to say I got in the high seventy percent of the votes. And then I went over and was County Court-at-Law and then ran for re-election there. Then ran for the Court of Appeals and didn't get any opposition. I worked hard and went into South Texas and of course at that Blair Reeves
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time, Sterlin, see I had been county judge over eleven years and this was only two or three years before ... three or four years before ... my name was still ... had a pretty high visibility in South Texas ..(inaudible).. television for all these years. I knew most of the county judges and commissioners. And the county governments, the dominant government in rural counties and so I had a pretty good in with those people.
H: How many years were you in the County Court-at-Law?
R: About five.
H: And then you went to ... became the Associate Justice on the 4th Court of Appeals.
R: That's right.
H: And then the Chief Justice.
R: Yeah. What I did, I ran for Associate Justice, then I ran for re-election as Associate Justice because Carlos was running again, Carlos Cadena.
H: Carlos Cadena.
R: And then I got my second term on the Court as Chief ... as Associate Justice, and about half-way through that term Carlos said he wasn't going to run again. So I ran for Carlos' slot and got elected to Carlos' slot. I ran for three times without any opposition.
H: Can you summarize for me some of the changes, social, economic, you've seen in San Antonio since you finally got Blair Reeves
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back home in '47? You've been an active participant in a lot of things. The town is not nearly what it was ...
R: Oh, of course not. Well, ...
H: ... forty years ago.
R: Very interested, but about the social change or ... ?
H: Yeah.
R: Oh, it's been tremendous. But this town was always a pretty good town about racism I think. I don't ... we decided, when we started integrating the schools and things like that, as you recall we had no problems. And why we didn't have problems is because the establishment as well as the ... in the black community predominately at that time, and the Anglo community, and maybe the Hispanic community, realized I guess, I think, we all had to work together. And we did. I can remember the churches were so active in that. I can remember my church, my preacher and I going out in the '60s and going to different motels in the community and saying if a black has to register at your motel will you give him accommodations? And things like that. And going into restaurants with blacks and seeing if they would serve us. Single-member districts, of course, helped the city so much. That was a great thing that happened during Lila Cockrell's administration, that single-member districts. It's just been ... I think that had an extremely important thing to do with our growth and maybe stability. The river Blair Reeves
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... I can remember when that river ... all that work on that River was done, and that ...
H: That was in the late '30s?
R: Well, I'm talking about the late '30s and then again in the '60s and '70s.
H: Oh, HemisFair.
R: When HemisFair and the effects of HemisFair had a tremendous effect on our growth. And that changed downtown San Antonio. We're a pretty effective, large tourist area. We're ... golly, it speaks for itself. Yeah, there've been a lot of changes like that.
H: Well, and the Medical School, which we were speaking about, now provides about ... at least twenty-two or -three thousand well paying jobs.
R: It's all clean industry too. You know, they used to say that ... years ago, this is before my time, that the establishment wanted to keep San Antonio small. You've heard that and I've heard it too.
H: I've heard it too.
R: I don't know how true that is. I think there is some merit in that. But I don't know if that's inconsistent with progress. You're going to progress, I don't know if you've going to have to get larger. I don't know if they're incompatible, trying to keep the size ... your town a certain size. Like I guess they've done in perhaps North Blair Reeves
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Carolina.
H: Which Austin's tried to do and the people came anyway, and they weren't ready.
R: Yeah. That's true too. Yeah, that's a good ...
H: Austin had a consistent, no-growth policy for years. But the people came anyway and then they had to really catch up on very expensive infra-structure, services.
R: I was interested .... started this ... the things that county government's doing now, we tried to do thirty years ago, twenty years ago. I'm talking about county home rule, I worked hard for county home rule, county zoning, building codes, ...
H: Yeah, ordinance making.
R: ... ordinance making, all those things that we fought for so hard with the legislature. And it was the builders, it was the builders that fought it. I can remember Jim Uptmore, seeing him all the time in the halls in Austin. He said I'm killing everything you want. I said, "What are you doing that for?" I said, "You don't build a marginal sub-division. You go out and develop your property properly, Uptmore. Why in the world do you want to fight something we're trying to get these slums like they have at Meadow Wood ..." You remember? You know that? Said, "We're just trying to put some water out there." And they're still having water problems. We got a federal grant to put that Blair Reeves
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water system in there when I was county judge. There was Maria Berriozabal, Ed Day and I. And when all that revenue-sharing money was coming in. And we did a lot of work with that kind of stuff. But those same ... and Uptmore told me, he said, "I don't want any dadgum, retired sergeant coming out and putting a red tag on my electrical line and telling me I gotta do this or I gotta do that." Referring to the City of San Antonio.
H: But he had to do it within the city limits.
R: Well you see that's right, he had to do it within the city limits, and out there in the ETJ, he would not build a ...(inaudible - submarginal plat?) because they wouldn't. But they could file a plat outside of the city's ETJ, Ex-territorial Jurisdiction, for your machine's sake, and the county, under it's laws, we had to accept the plat if it meant marginal, I mean marginal conditions. Roads with a certain base, one thing and another, but they didn't have to be paved and ...
H: Well, in an urban county like this, the only justification for county government, I mean with its limited powers, is the criminal justice sytem.
R: No question about it. No question about it. During my time as county judge we established the purchasing agent; we did a lot of purchasing with the City of San Antonio doing those things. That's come down again. We tried to Blair Reeves
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establish civil service, a somewhat successful civil service. But it's the same thing all over again. The county government, yeah, actually it's a support for the courts and for the justice system, the jails. The county government does ... has so few implied powers, Sterlin. It can only do what the legislature tells them they can do.
H: It's almost as powerless as the governor of Texas.
R: (laughter) More so!
H: (laughter) But maybe that'll begin to change; maybe ... at least some of the urban areas will get a form of metro- or home-rule or something to consolidate services.
R: They're probably going to have a metro-government that's going to be tax-based. Alamo Heights has a tax-base and it's got a bonded indebtedness. And its bonded indebtedness is different from that one of Castle Hills or the City of San Antonio. And when you form these bills you're going to have so many different tax rates throughout all these different areas. Which you have them now, but I guess it ...
H: That's true, but it works in other parts of the country.
R: Oh sure, but it didn't come easy.
H: I'm sure it didn't.
R: In Missouri it's worked. In Florida it's worked.
H: Well in Oregon, Portland is a Tri-County Metro.Blair Reeves
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R: That's great.
H: Three counties and there are all kinds of municipalities. Of course there's Portland and surburbs, but they've done some wonderful things up there.
R: Sterlin, look at this. You have your county government where your sheriff is elected, your assessor-collector is elected, your county clerk and district clerk are both elected offices.
H: Right.
R: How can you have a cohesive government? How can a county Commissioner Court govern? As long as you have a situation where ... our consititutional office ... you can't tell me what I can do with my office.
H: You can't set my budget.
R: Well, that's the only axe they've got is by cutting their budget and then the DA gets mad at them and ...
H: Yeah. It goes on and on. And the same old wars roll around.
R: Do you remember when the county Commissioners Court took over the jail and ran the jail for a couple of years?
H: Yeah.
R: Well, that happened because Bill Hauck was having someone get killed over there in that jail and he blamed Commissioners Court. And I said, "Hauck, I'm tried of you blaming the Commissioners Court for everytime you get Blair Reeves
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somebody killed over there in that jail, or beat up in that jail?" He said, "It's your responsibility, don't blame me, don't blame ..." And he said, "Commissioners Court, if they'd only give me enough money I could do it." And I said, "No, if you'd make some recreational grounds over there and put that ... open that basketball court you've got on top of that jail." He said, "I ain't going to do it." Said, "I'm not going to coddle the prisoners." I said, "You use that television set as a means of enforcement. As long as they behave themselves, they get television. You give them ... you try to educate them." So anyway, one day he said, "You want to run that jail?" I said, "Yeah."
H: (laughter)
R: (laughter) And we got a bill through the legislature, Sterlin, that Commissioners Court would operate the jail. But we could not get Harris County or Tarrant County to go along with us and you know, you had to pass a bill, the constitution had to be a bracket bill, the constitution ...
H: Population.
R: Population stuff. And so we couldn't get anybody ... so we did it anyway and, of course, (Attorney General) John Hill finally found it unconstitutional. But we operated it for three or four years.
H: How did you do? Did you get anybody killed?
R: Hell, no! We did a good job! We take some revenue-Blair Reeves
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sharing money and built that area over there now where you had your JP courts magistrating you don't have to bring them over in a truck. You just magistrate them right from the jail, over into that business. That second floor there, we used that for GED and teaching. And we had - put a library in there for them to check out books. We put television sets in there and have that exercise program. And it worked pretty well.
H: That's in the detention hall?
R: Sure. And you used it as a manner of conducting discipline. You know, if you act up, you're not going to get your television.
H: You have any particular regrets about things that you think you might could have done, but couldn't get done? in any of your offices?
R: Oh, gosh, yeah, I would have loved to accomplished home-rule. I would have liked to have accomplished some extensive zoning. I really want us to be a metropolitan area like Dade County; that's what I was trying to do.
H: But the rural counties wouldn't let you do it.
R: No, they sure wouldn't. And you know, I don't know if you remember the presidential convention we've had ... regular presidental convention to re-write the constitution that occurred in the ... wasn't it in the '70s or was it late '60?Blair Reeves
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H: '74. Is that when Nelson Wolff was involved with it?
R: Might have been. Price Daniel Jr. was the president of the convention.
H: Yeah, he was Speaker of the House. Yeah, Nelson ....
R: Speaker of the House. Well Price and I got to know each other pretty well. I said, "Price, I just want a shot at county home rule in the new ... in your new constitution." And he said, "You've got it, you'll have it." And so when I appeared up there to testify in front of the committee that was writing the thing, all of the rural counties were represented and they fought it. And they beat it.
H: It was not in the new constitution? It was voted down?
R: It was voted ... then they put it in and it was voted down.
H: Yeah, the whole thing shot down.
R: Yeah, and the whole thing shot. We finally got it before the people. But their reasoning was that it was ... county government was grass-root's government and the people ... government closest to the people, and it ought to remain that way. And I remember rebutting that thing. And just telling them, you know, these guys that want to keep government with the people, so close to the people, they want to protect them so much they won't even let them vote, boys!Blair Reeves
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H: Right. (laughter) And they ... I think still a lot of rural people don't realize the difference between, say, my home county, Haskell County, and Bexar County.
R: Yeah, that's right.
H: Where you've got eight thousand and here we've got a million people and it's a totally different way of life and government. Anything you're especially proud of?
R: Only the hospital.
H: The hospital is ....
R: Yeah, and I ... I was proud of that, and I was proud of county civil service. When I took office in 1967, Jerry Mazolis was deputy clerk, first deputy, and Elton Cude fired him. And Jerry was about sixty-two, couldn't get his Social Security, or maybe he was only sixty, but he couldn't get his Social Security, couldn't get another job, and he was out of a job. And the only reason he'd been fired was because he'd fought Elton Cude. And I said ... man ... I'd known Jerry for years as a clerk and here he's out of a job! And so we tried to get county civil service through and we did! Pretty well.
H: Does that also apply to sheriff's deputies?
R: No, you see what happened they had a special law. But they have some job protection, yeah, they have some job protection, and might be under the same ... I'm not sure about that.Blair Reeves
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H: I don't know, because I remember Harlan Copeland shuffling ... because if a deputy made him unhappy he'd turn him, the deputy, into a jail guard or something like that, as punishment.
We're just about out of tape, is there anything you want to wrap up with?
R: That's all I guess. The town's changed a whole lot. The county's changed a whole lot. I think it's changed for the better. I think we have a better county than we had before. And I think local government's a pretty good government. It's tough to govern. And I think politicians get a bum rap.
H: Yeah. People don't always appreciate what you do, or what you go through.
R: Yeah, you've really got to love what you want to do and be committed to it. And I was. And when I was a judge, now ......... proud of my job, I'm proud of ... and I think it's a trust. I really do think the public ... public service is a public trust and it's just as important as the judicial or ministry or anything else.
H: If I may add, you fulfilled that trust as well as anyone I've known in my thirty-some odd years.
R: Well, thank you, that's very nice. I appreciate you saying that. And it means a lot to me too. I've given a lot of prayer and given a lot of thought and tried to do Blair Reeves
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what I thought was right, and tried to have the guts to stand up for something. And sometimes I didn't. Sometimes I waffled. But sometimes I didn't.
H: Right. Thank you, Judge.
R: Thank you.
H: Appreciate it.
R: You bet.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.