THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Civil Rights Series
INTERVIEW WITH: Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
DATE: 28 July 1994
PLACE: Palestine, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe
TAPE I, Side 1
CW: Testing...
DR: Had I done...when were you here?
CW: In December.
DR: Yes. Well, I had done that column on Frank.
CW: Uh-huh. Right.
DR: [inaudible]
CW: It's July the 28th, 1994, and I'm in the home of Mrs. Dorothy Robinson in Palestine, Texas, and we're going to be discussing her husband's career, Frank's career, and this is a re-do of an earlier interview that we did - one we lost the first two hours of tape.
DR: As I look back now it's amazing to me that I was not more aware of some of the things he was doing and why he was doing it. But I can't pinpoint a time or thing or an incident and say this is what inspired Frank to do this. And so, by nature he was a very caring person, very sympathetic person. And he was not the kind of person to let George do something that he felt needed to be done.
CW: Uh-huh.ROBINSON, Tape I
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DR: And I think that's probably really the motivating power that started him working in civil rights. And of course, the longer he worked and the deeper he delved into it, the greater the need he saw and then the more contacts he had and that kept him going. I don't know the first thing he did, but my guess is, he was very much aware of conditions that needed changing, even before the civil rights movement gained any momentum. But once that there was a sort of structure through which he could work, he immediately took...became very, very active in it. Locally first, of course, but...and he would go away to...if there was a meeting in Houston or San Antonio, Dallas or some place where, I guess, he thought he could get inspiration or information, he'd go. I was just running through some papers this morning and looking at some hotel bills and gas bills and whatnot, and it didn't matter to him about personal expenses - if it was something that he wanted to do, that he felt was worthwhile - the financial angle of it really took second place. And sometimes, as a wife, I'd say, "Well, why did you do this or why did you do that?" But really, I was always proud of what he was doing and I was always supportive of what he was doing. In fact, mutual support was a benchmark of our marriage. He was always sup-portive of any thing I did or wanted to do. And I felt the same and showed the same kind of interest where he was concerned. I suppose the one thing that we disagreed - I DRL: don't suppose, I know - the one area where we were ROBINSON, Tape I
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most unlike and where we really had the most trouble, and I'm not saying by any means that we had a troubled marriage, because we didn't, but was in the management of money. Because we both grew up in circumstances very similar. We're both from large families, farm families and very poor families and I was among...I was the second oldest in my family, he was the oldest in his. But our idea about management of money was as different as...poles apart. Because he would say, "I grew up with nothing and if I see something I want, something I want to do, I'm going to do it." And I said, "Well, I grew up with nothing and I don't live with nothing; I'd like to manage it a little bit better." So he did spend quite a bit of his income to sup- port events or activities with respect to civil rights. He ...Frank had the ability to influence more people, more quickly than anybody I ever knew. And he always had a concerted, sincere following. People who aligned themselves with him usually stayed with him. I don't know that he ever lost anybody from the ranks. If they...in this room I was looking at pictures the other day where he had youngsters - young people - sitting on that very own couch right there. He could get on the phone and call three or four people and say, "Look, we're having a meeting at five o'clock, bring so-and-so with you, bring such and such a number", and he'd fill this place up or meeting in a hall or someplace in no-time. What I'm trying DR: to say is he was very influential and people trusted him and he ROBINSON, Tape I
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was trust-worthy. What else?
CW: Well, is that related, I guess, to his teaching career? I guess he knew everybody...
DR: Well, yes, I think that he did have a broad scope of acquaintances, and he never limited his public service. I mean, for instance, when he was...he started to teaching agriculture over at Butler Community - that's in Freestone County, about 22 miles from here - and when they started, he was the first agriculture teacher they had - the school was a consolidated one, and kids would come in from elsewhere, and they'd never had an agriculture teacher there. And school started before they had a building, and he started his classes under a tree.
CW: When was this?
DR: That was in 19 and 48. And of course, they soon got a building going. And he didn't just concern himself with teaching those kids agriculture in the classroom, his influence was spread throughout the county. He stayed there 12 years, I believe. Let's see, from '48 to, must have been about early '60s, late '50s. He was promoted to the super-intendent's job - he retired as the superintendent of that district, the Butler School District. But he did as much outside of the school. For instance, there's a Farm-to-Market road there now that was developed under his leader-ship, and when they went to Austin to take care of all of DR: the legal aspects of it, he was the spokesman for the whole community. Shortly after he passed, Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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a lady came to me and said - I never knew her - she said, "I want you to know something that your husband did for us," she said. We were studying with oil lamps until he was instrumental in bringing electricity to our part of the community where he stayed." He finally got...after he got to be superintendent they built a new science building and that community now -of course, the schools have been desegregated, but the building that was constructed as a science building under his admini-stration is now a community center. Every now and then I go over and sentimentally visit it or appear on a program or something over there. So, he was a... I wonder now how he had such far-reaching vision of what could be? You know, he could dream of what could be and would get out and try to make it be. And I'd...half the time I'd be doing something else. I wasn't aware of the depth of his work. What else?
CW: Is it...you know, Mrs. Smith, Mrs. Timothy Smith, told me something along those same lines which interests me, is that women weren't, or wives weren't, or black wives weren't that much involved in their career?
DR: I don't really know. I know I never objected to what he did, but I think maybe...well, let me back a minute. When the...in North Carolina when those first black kids went on a sit-down...where was it? Woolworth's or some-place. My niece was in Southern, in Baton Rouge - a DR: segregated college - and I started to write to her and say, "Don't have Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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anything to do with that. I've been eternally grateful that I did not write that letter. What I'm trying to say is, it, maybe, if I gave it any thought at all, I thought it would never happen. I rather think that was...that I just thought it was just a kind of empty dream. And I don't know about other women, but I don't know if all ... I know all black women didn't feel the way I felt and maybe the way Mrs. Smith felt. But, Frank had so many things going, I couldn't keep up with...[laughter] For instance, I mean, he was concerned with or organized 4 or 5 different organizations here. He always had something going in the garden, and I never got in the garden because he brought the vegetables in the house, so it was just another one of Frank's projects so far as... I was just taking it for granted, without realizing fully the import of some of the things that he was doing. And that does not mean that I objected to it or that I in any way placed obstacles or expressed my... I didn't disagree with it, I was just more or less unaware of the depth of it. I knew what...that he was doing something, but not the extent of it. And I think now, when this case was held in Tyler and I think, you have those records, you had those records. you've given... I was in Fredricksburg, I think, to a meeting. As I look back now it looks like I would have cancelled that meeting and gone with my husband. And I think some of it was based on the DR: fact that I just felt Frank was able to take care of himself and he didn't really need me. Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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But as I...when I think about it now, I say ,"Why didn't I
go with him?" I can't say that I regret it, because he didn't
expect me to go. If he had really wanted me to go and said,
"I wish you would go along", I certainly would have gone. And
sometimes he would ...he would ask my advice about something,
just like I would ask his advice about things I was involved
in. He'd say, "What do you think about this?" And if it was
something that...like if he was in the midst of a campaign...
When he was doing, in a local campign here, for instance, he
ran for the school board, he ran for city council, he ran for
county commissioner, and lost them all. And he would say,
"Well, I knocked on the door." Now, when it came to developing
advertising material, well, he always would call on me and he
knew I would do the best I could with it. And in other words,
our mutual support was shown along those lines.
He was deeply religious. Incidently, last Sunday, the
24th of July, was my 64th wedding anniversary. I was flying
in from Philadelphia, and I said to my seat-mates on the plane,
I said, "This is my 64th wedding anniversary." And then I told
them where Frank and I got married. I think I might have told
you.
CW: I think you did, but tell me again.
DR: We got married sitting in a car, under a tree on a dirt
DR: road outside of Hempstead, Texas, because we had slipped
off the campus to get married and then we had to slip back before
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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the Dean could find...the authorities could find it out. And I had an English exam that evening, and I made a B and I had never made B in English before. I'd always made A's. [laughter] Now, I have digressed and I forgot, really, what I was trying to say. I've lost my trend, what-ever...
CW: Well, you started telling me about was, your 64th wedding anniversary.
DW: Oh, about... Oh, we had been courting - we met in the summer of '27. He was working in the...washing dishes, I was waiting table and that was how we met. And the summer school was 12 weeks long.
CW: And this was when you were at Prairie View?
DR: At Prairie View, the summer of 1927. And by the end of the 12 weeks, our first date was July the 4th, incidently, and at the end of the school term - it was in August, early August when the term was over. He said, "I want you to be my wife." I was just 18 and he was 24 or 25, he was 25. And, you know, I liked him alright, but I wasn't thinking about getting married and all. [laughter] But the rela-tionship went on until '30 and he...I was in summer school, and he said, "Let's go to town Thursday, go to Hempstead." And I said, "For what?" And he said, "To get married." Oh, but before then, during the regular session of '27 and '28 DR: in the Old Chapel, one day he said, "Will you marry me?" And see, heretofore he had just said, "I want you for my wife." And I said, "This is the first Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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you've ever asked me." He said, "I know it, but I had to know I wanted you before I asked you." [laugher] So it was...we really were, I guess, engaged without any announcement or anything from the school year of '27 and '8 until we actually got married in 1930. I'm doing a column now - it's down at the Press - on my early years here in Palestine. He graduated from Prairie View in 1931.
CW: Why did you have to run off to get married? You slipped off campus.
DR: Well, we weren't even supposed to be courting on the campus, much less getting married. Things were very...but incidently, he had asked my parents for me, and of course, they had said yes, but we were going to get married after he graduated. And it was right in the midst of the Depression. And I knew my folks didn't have anything to pay for all of the trappings of a wedding, so we didn't even wait until he graduated; we got married at the end of his junior year. And I went on. I was teaching in Markham, and I went back to Markham and he went on back to do his senior year. And when he graduated in '31, in May. Because he was the only "Ag" man that graduated from Prairie View who was married, he was the first one to get a job. They felt that marriage was a stablizing influence, I guess, and he was sent here to DR: Palestine. And he graduated from Prairie View on the 18th of May in '31, and he began his work here on July 1st in 1931 as the County Agent Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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serving the black farmer - then we were Negroes, the Negro farmers of Anderson County. And he came July 1st and July 30th. I had been in summer school. He picked me up and brought me to Palestine. And I ...there's a column down to the Press now, because the 30th is Saturday and that will be my...I've been a resident of this community 63 years, and that's coming out in the...
CW: Uh-huh.
DR: So I continued to work down in Matagorda County at Markham until '33, and I was able to get a job here. See, he was here two years, and I was still working away as you and your husband are now. Well, then I began working here in 1933, and we rented an apartment down here - the old house is not there any more - and four years later we built this house. And I've been in this place since 1937. That's why it's so run-down and ramshackled. [laughter]
CW: Oh, it's not run-down.
DR: So he stayed in the Extension Service until '44 and the war had broken. And he was exempt from Army because of... his job was - what did they say? - it was necessary for defense, so to speak, but he suffered with hay fever so terribly much that the doctor told him if he could move where there was salt air he'd probably get some relief. So he left the Extension Service, and he went to San Francisco DR: where there was salt air and at the same time he would stay in defense. He Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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worked for Kaiser Steel, that ship-making...
CW: How did he get that job?
DR: Well, they were just begging for workers.
CW: Oh, so he just went out there and...
DR: He just went out there, and he wasn't there very long before...I guess he got a job in the next two or three days because they needed them so much. See, he was working with ship repair. Well, as an Ag student he had had some carpen-try and that kind of stuff - mechanical thing - so he had a limited background for that kind of work. And then I followed about 2 or 3 months later, and we stayed there 3 1/2 years. And when the war closed, we came back here and that's when he went to work at Butler. And he stayed at Butler from '48 to '61, and he started to work for the American Woodman Life Insurance Company. He retired from teaching and then, because he couldn't just sit and hold his hands, he was too active, he started this real estate project and began working as a district supervisor for the American Woodman Life Insurance Company - it was based in Denver. And that's...the fact that he was not just tied down to a 8 to 5 job after he left the teaching profession, that gave him more time to do whatever he wanted to do with the civil rights thing. And it came in just about at the right time. He was free to go where he wanted to go, when DR: he wanted to go, for the most part.
CW: And I definitely want to concentrate on that, but I have Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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a couple of other details I'd like to get.
DR: Okay.
CW: Did San Francisco help? Was his hay fever?
DR: Well, he did not suffer with it while he was there, but when he came back here shortly after, it re-asserted itself and...
CW: Why did he go all the way out to San Francisco?
DR: Well, it was that was salt air.
CW: Well, like the Texas Gulf Coast?
DR: Yes, but there was some...he knew he wouldn't have any problem getting work. Kaiser and one or two other ship building companies were literally begging for workers. And he knew that if he went there he wouldn't have any trouble getting work, and he didn't.
CW: What was it like being black in San Francisco?
DR: About as bad as it is here. [laughter] I'm glad you asked. We roomed...there was...when he went there he roomed with a woman from Texas, and she had some nieces and nephews who were living with her, so they were kind of crowded. He went out in January, I went in March, early March. We had one room - I was miserable, because I had left this house -room and everything, and 25 of us were using one bathroom, and whenever he'd get in the bathroom and he was ready to come out, he'd knock on the door so I'd know I could go in DR: or vice versa. And we stayed about...I went there in March and housing, Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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it was non-existent. And you ask me how was it for black people - I saw an ad in the paper one day where there were apartments to let, and I had a friend who had worked with me here - her husband was in San Francisco. That was another thing that lured Frank - this friend said, "Come on, I know you'll get a job." We went down to look at these apartments. Of course, I've never been very obser-vant, I'm just running through things, finally my friend said, she was in one room, she'd say, "Come here, come here." And it said, "No coloreds need apply." And, honey, it looked like a pigpen, it was sty, it wasn't fit for human beings to live in. But San Francisco is still not all it's supposed to be. But, again, one Christmas we made reser-vation - and I think this is mentioned in my book - to spend Christmas, we were there 2 or 3 days, at Pinecrest - it's a resort. I made my reservations [inaudiblel]... Travel Agency, down on Market St. and I made them in person; I did not make them over the phone. So my sister, her husband, Frank and I went up, I guess, about the 23rd or the 24th and we stayed until the 26th. So on Christmas morning we went up to the general...left our cabin and went up to the general assembly hall or something, but anyway, we were treated alright. Everybody looked, you know, kind of strange. What are you doing here? That didn't bother us, so when we got ready to leave, the people in the cabin next DR: door - we were the only blacks there, or only minority folk - people next door fought Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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all night long, but when we got ready to leave, we said, "Now,
they're going to check this cabin very closely because they
think that we're going to be dirty and nasty." My husband and
my brother-in-law got down on their knees and looked up under
the bed to make sure we didn't leave any papers or anything
under there. Shortly after I got back I had a call from
[inaudlible] ...and they said, "Mrs. Robinson, we understand
that you had some colored people in your party." And I said,
"We are all colored", and I said, "I made my reservation in
person, you saw me and nobody said anything about ethnicity,
now what was wrong with our being there?" And he said...[gasp
sound] "But I got a letter of apology from the Pinecrest people
the resort people - inviting us back. I tried to find that
letter when I was writing my book, but I couldn't find it.
[laughter] But it was...what had happened in San Francisco,
there had been...you know, racial tension exists when there
are enough people of each group to be...to feel threatened if
it's just a few. Before the war there were so few black people
in San Francisco, they were just a non-entity, nobody paid any
attention to them. When I went there, there was not a black
teacher in San Francisco. And the first black lady that was
hired was...said she was French, but somebody told us some white
person was trying to help - but I'm going so far afield - trying
to help her to get on... Said, DR: "Well, don't tell
them you're Negro; tell them you're French." [laughter] But
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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anyway, that's changed greatly since then - 60 years or whatever
- it's changed. But there's still a lot of racial
prejudice there now.
CW: So there was an influx of blacks and you lived in a kind
of black community and...?
DR: Well, yes, yes, I lived in the...I lived in the Filmore
area, which was really the Japanese, and those Japanese people
had been moved during the war - what did they call it? - they
went to the concentration...
CW: Internment camps.
DR: Yes, they didn't say concentration but that's the same
thing. And they were up-rooted, which I think is one of the
terriblest things every happened in American history, and the
influx of blacks moved into those houses. The house that we
lived in, the room where we lived had been owned by black...by
Japanese people. And my brother, who is in real estate in San
Francisco now and doing very well, A lot of the people, the
Japanese people, did not claim their houses back once they had
a chance. I don't know whether they ever were placed back in
their possession, I don't know, but a lot of their property
was up for sale. And I guess they got some pay from the
Government since then, I think. But any-way, my brother-in-law
was looking at, wanted to look at a house, and the real estate
dealer told him, "Your wife can see it but you can't". His
wife is fair. And he said, DR: "Well, I trust my wife's
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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judgement about a lot of things but I'm not about to put $250,000 in a project that I can't look at." So that took care of that.
CW: And that was just recently?
DR: That about 7, maybe 10 years ago. It's plenty of prejudice there now, but it's not as overt. Or maybe it's more overt, maybe it's less overt here, or else we pretty well...we're more accustomed to the pattern, I guess. That's ...I was standing on the street corner one day and a lady was just lambasting about all these Negroes coming in here from the South, and she talked about us just terrible. And I wanted her to get through so I could say, "Well, I'm one of them." [laughter] And the streetcar came before I had a chance. [laughter] I should have yelled back and said, "Well, I'm one of them." I was the first, while Frank was at Bethlehem Steel, I was the first black dietician that ever worked at San Francisco City and County Hospital. I started work there in March in 1944, and I stayed until September in '47. And at first it...two other white girls quit because they weren't gonna...wouldn't work under a black person, except we weren't black. I think she wasn't going to take orders from a nigger, I think that's what she told the boss. But I stayed, and she left, and I did a good job, I guess - stayed there until we got ready to move back to Texas.
But let's get back to Frank. Ask me some more about DR: Frank.
CW: I will.Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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DR: [inaudible]...here to Palestine...
CW: Well, actually, I wanted to ask...let's just back up a little bit and tell me when and where he was born and his parents.
DR: He was born in Smith County in a rural community about 13 miles from Tyler. When I met Frank he told me was from Tyler and he went home that summer and his father grew delicious peaches - he sent me a bushel of peaches. And they were sent from Whitehouse, Texas. And I got a letter from him and that was mailed in Bullard. And I wondered where in the world does this man live?
CW: [laughter]
DR: And then when I got the Prairie View catalog, it said "Frank James Robinson, Rt. 1, Box 100, Flint, Texas". And then I said, "Where are you from?" And he said, "I'm from Mud Creek." And so, really, it was a rural community called Antioch Community about 15 miles out of Tyler, Texas. His family had a reunion about 3 weeks ago and family members came from California and all over, and I attended. And they have a Frank Robinson Scholarship active, and I was able to make a...what I consider a sizeable contribution to that. So I still have maintained very good contact with his, all the members of his family. That's his picture up there with his father.
CW: Was he the first in his family to go to college?
DR: He was the only one in his family to go to college, I think. I'm glad you asked that. I think that hurt Frank DR: too. Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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We had his younger brother and my younger brother here, and we were trying to get them both through school, and his brother became homesick and wouldn't stay. And his brother didn't even finish high school. My brother stayed and went on through college and got his master's degree and all that kind of thing. So, I think it was a bit of embarrassment to him; he never said so. I remember the... my birthday is on the 3rd of May and his is on the 7th of June, and on the 3rd of May...and I usually leave my cards and gifts on this table until the time comes for his birthday. and I said to him - and this was his last birthday in '76. I said, "I'm going to move these things and make room for your birthday." And he said, "Well, my family does not remember my birthday the way yours remembers yours." I called his sister in Dallas and told her what he said. I said, "Now you get that family down here for Frank's birthday." And he was just surprised; he had no... But she had three carloads of family members, and he was delighted! And I'm very happy too, since it was his last one. And some of his gifts he had not used when he died. I gave them back to different family members - shirts and toilet articles and all that kind of thing. His family was very poor, as was mine. He lost his mother when he was about 10 or 12. And DR: he stayed out of school from the time his mother passed until he was about 19, I think, he said, late teens. And he went back to school and stayed a year. And he said he was in Tyler one day selling Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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coal...they would burn wood and take the coal and sell it and
ladies would use it - laundries, laundry women would use it
to heat their irons. I don't know whether you know what I'm
talking...
CW: Uh-huh.
DR: It didn't happen down in my country, but it happened here.
And he said he heard such joyful laughter up on the hill and
he wondered what everybody was so happy about. And he asked
the lady who was buying his coal, "What's happening up there?
I hear so many people laughing." She said, "There's a college
up there." And he was 17, about 15 miles from Tyler, but he
did not know that there was a college in Tyler for Negroes.
There were really two colleges - Texas College and Butler
College. So he decided he wanted to go to Texas College. But
he was just in the 7th grade. So he went up to Texas College
to enroll and he was told, "Yes, we have a high school classes
here; even though it's a college we'll take you." So he went
there 1923 in the 7th grade. And I think he worked...he milked
the cows or worked the garden or something, and the principal,
the head person at Texas College was W.R. Banks from Georgia
who left there and went to Prairie View. And he was principal
- Prairie View didn't have a president - the head person was
called a DR: "principal." So Principal Banks went to
Prairie View. But Mrs. Banks took a special interest in Frank,
and she tutored him, one to one. And when Mr. Banks went to
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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Prairie View - Frank followed Mr. Banks to Prairie View and took examination for college freshman and passed. So he went to college, went to Texas College in the 7th grade in 1923 and in '31 he graduated from Prairie View with a Bachelor's Degree. He was very...he was not what I'd call...
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT 45 MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
CW: Okay; you were just saying that Frank wasn't smart.
DR: aAs we call smart. Wasn't sharp, I guess I should say. But he was very profound. If there was something that he needed to do, he gave it all the time that was necessary. He didn't mind getting up at 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning to do whatever it took, study out or plan or whatever it was. I remember when he was...he and Mr. Smith went to Tyler for this hearing. I don't think Mr. Smith ever went on the stand; I don't think he did.
CW: This is Timothy Smith?
DR: Timothy Smith.
CW: And the hearing was...?
DR: In Tyler, Justice's Court...what's...?
CW: Like a District Court or...?
DR: It's whatever it is on those papers. What is...Chief Justice...they...comes to me...
CW: Wayne Justice. Uh-huh.
DR: Yes. Well, that case was heard in his court. And when Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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Frank made his...when Frank left the stand, the judge said, "We do not need to call another witness." He was just that thorough. And if you read that thing, it's...but he had really spent a lot of time working with it and studying, making sure that the accusations that he made against the county were valid. That was the thing that really...
CW: And this was about the prison system?
DR: No, no...[inaudible]
CW: Oh, okay.
DR: I had to say that to try to help you know who Wayne Justice was.
CW: Right.
DR: It had nothing to do with...[inaudible]
CW: What was this case about?
DR: This was when Smith, Rodney Howard, Timothy Smith and Frank Robinson sued Anderson County because they had gerry-mandered a voting district to the point that the blacks were no longer...it diluted - I think that was the word that was used - it diluted the black voting power. If the district had remained...for instance, down where Ella Mae Smith still ...it's a concentration of blacks. Well, they had gerry-mandered to break up a lot of that black solidarity so that it made it very difficult for blacks to win a political race, if they even announced. And you know we're still DR: voting by color. I served as judge up here at this...at the box at this school Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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up here on the hill, and this last spring we had a black and a white running for city council, and the whites voted for whites and blacks voted for blacks. If I had a lot of white voters to come in - we had paper ballots - when the time came to count the ballots, all of them were for whites. If a group of blacks came in... So the only way blacks could win anything in Anderson County, they had to gerrymander the district to put them back them in, because the county had drawn lines that put them out.
CW: Which was a very important case. How was that funded? Did he get help - legal help from, monetary help - from...?
DR: Umm. It's a shame to tell you. I don't know, but I would suppose that the defense was the ones that would be out of money, not the plaintiffs.
CW: Well, you'd still have to hire a lawyer and...
DR: Oh, yes, they had...yes, they did. Ann Richards' ex-husband was one of their lawyers. Now, don't ask me where the money came from because I really do not know. It seems to me that... Now, Rodney Howard could perhaps answer that, or Mr. Smith if he were...Ella Mae might know, but I don't know. And Frank probably...I'm sure he spent some personal money, but he didn't have a lot to spend, so he had to get it from someplace. But Rodney would be, I suspect, the most valid source of getting that.
CW: Uh-huh.
DR: But I do know that...just looking at our family income, Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
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Frank could not have spent a lot of personal money, because he did not have it.
CW: Uh-huh. You told the story about his thesis awhile ago and I'd like to get that on tape.
DR: Oh, no. I was mentioning the fact that he went from the 7th grade to a Bachelor's Degree in about 8 years. But naturally there were skips, there were great skips in his elementary education, so he was weak in composition. And he depended on me a great deal for that. And when the time came for him to write his Master's thesis, well, he de-veloped the survey forms and all like that and gathered all the information. But when it came to dealing with the information, he just gave it to me and I just got busy with it. And to prove to you that he did give it to me...I mention the fact that sometimes I would be writing something and if had to do strictly with something about plants or animal life or something, I didn't have the information and I would wake him up and I'd say, "What about so-and-so?". And he would give me the answer and go back to sleep or go back to the garden or whatever he was doing. And when the time came to defend his thesis, I was at the University of Texas in Austin, and he had... I guess they had given him a sort of schedule what all he would have to cover, and he brought whatever he had from Prairie View to Austin for me DR: to look over it and kind of coach him, I guess. And he said when the...he really...during the presentation process there was Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
24
a discussion about some one item, and he said he almost said, "Well, now that's right, because my wife wrote it." [laughter] But anyway, he defended himself very well. And do you know, I looked the other day trying to find a copy of his master's thesis - he must have left it at the school when he retired. And I guess Prairie View department would have a copy if I really wanted to get ahold of one. But he was born under Gemini, and I guess there's something to the fact that people born under that sign would 'keep many things going at once.' And he could have...he was a founder of the Anderson County...we called it The Civic League, it's now called the Anderson County Community Council - it's incorporated. And one of the main things it's doing now, it sponsors a service for senior citizens' transportation around town. Or taking people even out of town if they have to go to a doctor or something out of town. That's the Anderson County Community Council that was originally the Anderson County Civic League.
CW: And what did it do originally?
DR: Uh?
CW: What did it do originally?
DR: Oh, about the same thing. But when we became incor-porated and asking for some Federal funds or something, it was something about having to change the title. I don't DR: remember just exactly what it was, but that was... And also, he was concerned...we had the East Texas Leadership Forum. And that Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
25
was composed of leaders - people - involved in civil rights in several counties here in East Texas, and that's how he was associated with Paul Ragsdale, who was a Representative at the time, and they called it the East Texas Project when several counties were striving for single member districts. Somewhere I had a map of the counties that were concerned, but I do not know how many were successful in really effecting the single member district. But I do know that Anderson County was, or is, still working under that.
CW: With Frank's leadership?
DR: Yes. Very definitely. Now when he died, he had threatened to sue the city, and I think that was the thing that really incensed the people so that it resulted in his death. Because there were some people out, and far out, in this part of town who were paying water bills, and they weren't even getting city water. And they were being charged.
CW: And they were black?
DR: Yeah, blacks, most of them, might be a few white ones there but most of them were black. And so he...that suit had not been filed at the time of his death, but they were preparing it. But, now, when they won the case in Tyler at Wayne Justice's court, the county appealed that case and it DR: was heard at the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans. And the material that you have would cover that report. And I think that cost - supposed to have cost the county about $18,000. Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
26
I said they used tax money, our tax money, to fight us. [laughter] But that was what happened. But at the time of Frank's death, he was plan... Oh, another organization that he was concerned with here, and he called it - I don't remember - Employment Commission, Pales-tine Employment Commission. And it was a very informal...it was never incorporated or anything of the sort. But they had reached the point that some of the businesses would call a member of that organization and say, "Can you send us this kind of worker? We want somebody with these skills.". And the glass company was open, was operating, at that time and they used that source of gaining employees quite frequently. And Frank was the instigator of that.
He kept...I was just looking this morning at a list of registered voters in the different precincts that he knew which was black and which was white. And then if there was a campaign, he would make sure that we would meet at the different churches and let the candidates give their speeches or what-not. And then - and we haven't done this since he's been gone - we would have a city-wide meeting when every...well, county-wide because county candidates could come, too...and everybody could come and have 3 to 5 minutes or whatever to make their appeal to the voters. And DR: I thought - and I still think - that that was one of the finest things, because even now if we have...if a campaign is in progress, when the time comes to Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
27
vote, people call me and say, "Mrs. Robinson, how must I vote?" And they say, "If Mr. Robinson was living, we'd know." And he's been gone 18 years, almost 18. But that is true; there was... And after these people would make their appeals, usually the Anderson County Voter's Committee, which he chaired, would sit and go over...you've got John Brown, Pete Thomas, and who-all running for sheriff, "How are we going to vote?" And they would come to a consensus. And by the time voting day arrived, election day arrived, it was pretty well disseminated through the black community that the Voter's Committee is supporting so-and-so, so-and-so, so-and-so.
CW: How did they get the word out?
DR: Sometimes through the churches or on the telephone, and it wasn't anything clandestine about it; they'd just call and say... You be sure...you take so many names and you call and you give them this slate. And sometimes they'd even print the slate and distribute it. But of course, they didn't bring it to the polls, you know. But that was...and they did a very...and that was how we got the first elected black officials, whether it was city or county or what-not. And...but after Frank died... No, we didn't have a black commissioner until he died, but we've had one ever since. We had one city councilman, and now we have two. And we DR: have had two since...oh, God, I don't know...almost ever since he's been gone. We've had one...when Frank died we had one black person on the school Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
28
board, we still have just one on the school board. But that's nobody's fault but the black community's, because if somebody else would run,they'd win. But, you know, we just don't want the responsibility, I guess.
CW: Who else was involved with the Voter's League?
DR: Tim Smith, Rodney Howard, Rev. Dilworth - who is no longer here - just about everybody. Willie Myers, Simon Boyd - who was buried last week - and Mrs. Boyd, Mrs. Overshone, Rev. Emmanuel - it was a good cross-section of ...but anybody could come when the Voter's Committee sat down to go over, make selections - it wasn't a closed-door. Anybody could come in and say...but the people that really spear-headed it...that's why we say the Voter's Committee decided to go with this. But it was very interesting, too, because sometimes maybe I would say, "Well, I liked what Mr. So-and-so said". And somebody would say, "Well, I don't know, I remember his grandfather mistreated some black folks 40 years ago." So they were kind of stripped down when we got...[laughter]...because a lot of times one person would have had an experience and another would not have had that experience. But when we got through, but at least we'd decide this is the way the Committee is going. That doesn't mean you still can't vote the way you wanted to go. But DR: that was a strategy that I think - I don't think; I know -it helped to put black people in elective positions. And we are still moving on the strength of that. We have now Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
29
the first black woman that was elected county-wide to a public office. And she was elected, and she had, at first, I think, there were 2 whites - one dropped out and she defeated a white lady for the job. But this girl had been in the office, and we have we have one... I was at the courthouse this morning - it wasn't a pleasant visit for me, but I was surprised at the number of blacks who were working there. When we first built that city hall, I don't think there was a black person working there except the janitors.
CW: And when was that?
DR: Uh...don't ask me...[laughter]...it's been about, I guess, maybe 25 years ago, but it's quite different now.
CW: So, was the gerrymandering as a result or a strategy to counteract the voting strength that Frank and the Voter's Committee was...?
DR: Well, now, as a result of their case the county was re-districted, and it was re-districted in a manner that put sections where there were predominately black people, and that's what they were after. Because it had been more or less like that, naturally, just by housing. And that was when the county judge...well, the county court - that was the judge and the commissioners - re-districted it and cut that up, so the blacks were more or less asking to put it DR: back like it was. We wanted it to be so that blacks will have a chance to be...if they'll just go to the polls and vote. Well, now, if you could Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
30
see...and I probably could find it, can before you leave, so you'll see. It is a terrible, you know, it's very irregular, but it was done because we have black people here...we have black people in the southend where Ella Mae lives, so they had to draw the lines in a very irregular way to give the blacks an oppor-tunity to...because it was very well understood that people tend to vote by race. And it's kind of an unusual thing when it turns out to be otherwise. So they got what they were after.
CW: Right. But did they...did the county draw those lines after you started exercising your voting strength?
DR: They drew them after the court demanded that they did it. They did it because the court ordered them to do it. That is correct. Yes, ma'am. And it did not happen until they had gone through Judge Wayne Justice's court and until they got the ruling from the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans.
CW: Have you been pretty much carrying on his work? At least in terms of voting? You said that people still call you up.
DR: Uh, I think they still see me [laughter]... Actually, I'm very active with the County Democratic Party, and I'm a judge and have been a judge in my precinct. But I don't DR: begin to do all the work that Frank did. In fact, the Voter's Committee is not active like it was. We have not had...and what actually...I think one thing happened - Rodney Howard, who was very active with Frank, ran for a public office Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
31
and won it. So, naturally, if he is a can-didate, he's not going to be as active with this culling process. I don't think he's going back into public office after he ends his term, so he may revive the... So, I think, more or less I'm seen as that... But actually, I'm not doing anything like what Frank did - nothing - nobody is doing what Timothy Smith and Frank Robinson and Rodney did when they were active before Frank passed. But that is a negative, so far as our black community is concerned. We are not nearly as aggressive - nothing like it - we don't even... Frank was active in NAACP. We have not had an active branch of the NAACP since he's been gone. They'll jump up and put on a drive and gain some members and... We're not even having meetings, so far as I know, and I'm a member. I guess surely I would know if we have meetings.
CW: Now, why is that? Given there's still so much work to do. Why?
DR: Don't ask. Well, they say that all the black men are in the pen, and that's not quite true. But I'll tell you, there's a large segment of black men in the pen. Do you know there's more black men in the pen than there are in institutions of learning - higher learning?
CW: And are these the leaders of the...?
DR: No, but they are the potential leaders. If they'd gotten off on the right track - these are youngsters, some DR: of them in their 20s, maybe early 30s - but the... You Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
32
know, the desegregation of schools had its pluses and it had its minuses. The black kids suffered in some ways very seriously. And I'm not saying we should go back; we've just got to work with what we have. And after a few more years, I guess it will level off. But for a kid to develop a sense of leadership, he has to be inspired. And that inspiration ...you don't wait til a person gets 25 or 30 years old and then he catches it. He catches it down here someplace. Well, when the schools were desegregated...segregated... all of the leadership among students - the black kids had leadership roles. But, now, going back to this voting by race. Most of the schools just... Take, for instance, Palestine - about a third of the kids are black and maybe one tenth might be Hispanic. Now it's hardly, maybe that many...and then the others are white. Well, when it comes down to voting, what happens, the white kid gets the leadership roles most of the time. So, we're losing them before they even get out of school. And a lot of times they will drop out. Then we're losing black teachers. It's very difficult to get black teachers, because there are other jobs open and then... In our school - I said this when I was on the school board and I'm still saying it - we've DR: never developed a real strategy for recuiting black, or any minority, teachers. We set up...for hiring any teachers ... we don't have a strategy. What happens, we take whatever comes by the door and say, "I'm interested in a job" ...we'd Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
33
get some good teachers that way. But since black teachers and
Hispanic teachers are so few, the big cities pick them up because
nobody wants to come to Palestine, you know, it's out-of-the
way and what have you. So, to get black teachers we would have
to develop some special plans and go to these teacher training
schools and get those kid's name on a contract before some big
college picks them up. So, going back to my original point,
the black kids don't see role models and a lot of teachers are
not as concerned about... I went into a classroom and all the
black kids were in the back of the room, and I said to the teacher,
"Have you looked at your class?" And she said...good teacher,
just as honest...she said, "What are you talking about?" She
hadn't even seen it. And when I mentioned it to her, she said,
"Oh, I just...Mrs. Robinson, I didn't mean it. I just let them
sit with their friends." Well, when I was teaching, I made
sure the kids changed seats every 6 weeks or 3 weeks, to make
sure that it didn't happen. So nobody...they don't take time
or don't think about it - what's happening to the children.
So, that's one of our problems - the reason we don't have the
black leadership that we once had. And even our...we don't
have DR: the quality of black ministers that we once had.
I just mentioned that Rev. Dilworth was a very strong, political
person in this town. He went to Tyler, and the person that
took his place was not worth bearing the name of being a minister.
So we...and my community is at the lowest ebb I've ever seen
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
34
it for black leadership, and I've been here 63 years. I was
just lamenting that a few days ago.
CW: Um.
DR: We don't have a scout - a troop of scouts, scout troop
- that's predominately black. And there was a time when the
churches...when Frank was a Silver Beaver or whatever it is
you get for working with scouts, so we just don't have that
dedication or that feeling that I'm supposed to reach down and
make something happen.
CW: What do you think the role of the church should be or
isn't...?
DR: I think the role of the black church is more serious that
it's ever been. Because the black church and the black school
was all that the black... We didn't have a lot of businesses,
we weren't in politics, and when you took the black school out
of the black neighborhood, you took the heart out of the black
community. So now, all that...and homes are certainly not what
they used to be, so the church is all that the black community
has. And the black mini-sters are so busy having anniversaries
and raising money that they have almost...many of them have
forgotten the DR: human element and the possibility and the
need for spiritual and moral development - it's just not there.
Now it's not ...every place is not as bad as
Palestine...[laughter]...and there's some places I'm sure are
even worse, but I can compare Palestine with what it used to
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
35
be. And there is not a Frank Robinson on the horizon, as of now. And I don't see one.
CW: Is there an out-migration of blacks from here? Or black students?
DR: Well, we have blacks to leave, but we have blacks to come in; I think it more or less levels off. Because a lot of people come to work at the prison, prison system; that brings in quite a few people now. But that's a...I don't see one of Frank's disciples - that's what I would...because most of the kids... See, Frank's been gone now about 18 years. Well, the kids that he nurtured...and men...I don't mean just Frank only, but I mean the men who worked with him in nurturing youngsters, those kids are grown up and gone on heaven knows where now; they're not here. So, that's the way it is.
CW: So maybe...and I don't mean to be stereo-typical...but maybe the people who are attracted by the prison system... So the people who are moving in aren't, you know, kind of well-educated or the kind of people to take the leadership roles?
DR: Well, very few, very few would be. We've had one DR: minister who was very active. In fact he was my pastor at one time. He works on a board of community relations - a very viable member of that organization - and he's very highly trained. Bubut what happens? He gets a pro-motion - he's down at Huntsville now with several units under his jurisdiction - so we're now bereft of his services and his influence. We Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
36
have one bright spot, though, for Palestine - the principal of the Palestine High School is a black man and that's a plus. And it's the first time we've had a principal at the high school since desegregation. And he seems to be doing extremely well and he seems to be well accepted, but he coached here - he coached at the high school during the early stages of desegregation. So when he came back...in fact, some member of the school board was one of his football players, so that kind of...and that goes on to show that sometimes the... t's a lack of association that really keeps the rift widened. You know, if you just spend some time talking with each other...it's very difficult...if you spend enough time with anybody, you're likely to find something what you can appreciate about that person. But so long as you keep the gulf, the chasm, out there between you, you never know the thing that you might admire about a person if you never give yourself an opportunity to know the person. And so, we've been so busy building barriers when we should have been building bridges that we have...we've missed out - not only good things for the whole community DR: but I mean just personal things. We have an organization now that Frank would have enjoyed. That's a Community Relations Council. It's relatively new. But it's non-partisan, and we're not doing a lot of politic-wise, but just what it says - to kind of help create better race relations or to prevent problems as we see that they might develop. But ask me some more about Frank; Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
37
I can talk about Frank.
CW: [laughter] Well, I was... Before we do, I was inter-ested,
were you instrumental in this Community Relations ...?
DR: I'm chairing it, and it is a hot potato! [laughter]
That's what I was on TV about. I'll give you one of our brochures
before you leave. Yes, it's...well, we're multi-ethnic - we
have both races, we have different churches represented, we
have different occupations. So we're really ...we were just
incorporated two years ago, but we're going pretty strong; we
really are. We conduct...we've conducted ten forums on matters
that are of importance. We've done one on AIDS, we did one
on prejudice and the church, we did one on drugs, we did one
on employment, so we have... Wher-ever there's a hot spot
we...and we do it, hopefully, with-out antagonizing anybody,
but every now and then we anta-gonize somebody, but we've had
marvelous community response to it, really. On our board we
have a doctor, we have a lawyer, we have 2 or 3 businessmen,
we have some educators, DR: we have a banker, and one of the
most prominent insurance men in town, 2 or 3 retired teachers.
And we've got a His-panic teacher from the high school, one
from one of the rural schools, we even have a language
interpretation committee, because we found out that the language
barriers is one of our great problems here in Palestine.
CW: Um. You mean Spanish, English, or...?
DR: Well, I mean so many people cannot speak English, and then
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 1)
38
so many people like me who cannot speak Spanish. And the kids have problems in school, and we especially have problems with the law, because the law enforcement people can't understand the Hispanic-speaking people,and... But now, one thing, and I would like to give our organization some credit for this - the chief of police is instituting, or has instituted, and it will begin in October...he's going to give a special increment to his men who will take the course in Spanish. So, one of our aims is to prevent racial problems, and that's what... And then, if there is a prob-lem, to aid in the solution of the problem. But that's....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT 45. MINUTES.ROBINSON, Tape 2
2
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Civil Rights Series
INTERVIEW WITH: Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
DATE: 28 July 1994
PLACE: Palestine, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe
TAPE II, Side 1
CW: This is tape 2 of my conversation with Dorothy Robinson in her home in Palestine on July 28, 1994. And we're con-tinuing our conversation and her memories of her husband, Frank. Where do you want to start? We just talked about a couple...
DR: I'll start with my coming home.
CW: Okay.
DR: And finding that he was dead. After he died, the question was asked me quite frequently by the lawyers and policemen and whatnot if I had any inkling that he had been threatened or if he'd indicated any way that he had been. And the next question was, would he have told me had he been threatened. And I said, "Yes, I believe he would. But on second thought, he probably wouldn't. Because he would not have wanted to worry me. But if he had an inkling, I don't know it." But he said these words many, many, many times, he'd say, "Girl, if they kill me now, they haven't done anything but killed an old man, because I've done just about DR: all I can do." Now that ROBINSON, Tape 2
3
may have been his way of saying, of letting me know that he did have some fears. But unless that was what it meant, I had no idea that he was in danger, really. If I had, I'm sure I would have discouraged some of the things he did. But knowing Frank, he would not have wanted me to discourage him. And if he had to do it all over again, he would do it; he was just that dedicated. And so often he would say, "Change is always painful". And he'd say, "But what is a little bloodshed? Because it takes that to get...". He said, and these are his words, "My blood or yours or anybody's," he said, "Blood, change a lot of times results in bloodshed." And he'd go back to Jesus Christ. He go right back - he was a very religious person. So I had no idea. And then I'm not a very per...what's the word I want?...perceptive. I'm not a very perceptive person. A lot of things just go over my head, and other people see it and feel and I don't. But I had gone to Mil ... I left here and went to San Antonio - at that time I was serving as the chairperson of the Advisory Committee, Advisory Council, for Technical Vocational Education - and we had a meeting in San Antonio. And then, I went from San Antonio to a meeting in Milwaukee. I left here on, I think it was Wednesday or Thursday. He took me to Tyler to the ...I took the plane out of Tyler. On the way to the car...I was going to the car, and he stopped to fasten the backdoor. And he looked and he said, "You know, you're still a pretty DR: good looking old ROBINSON, Tape 2
4
woman." And I said, "Boy, come on here; I've got to catch an
early flight." And when we went to Tyler - and I can't remember
to this day if I kissed him goodby; I imagine I did, because
it was a habit of doing that. But I can't remember. But the
last time I saw him, I had gotten on the little plane - it was
a small plane - and I saw him talking to another man as he was
going to his car. He stopped, and that was the last time I saw
him. I called him from San Antonio on Saturday night and, of
course, he had my schedule and where I was to stay, but I reminded
him again that I was going to Minneapolis, and I would be back
Thursday, I think it was. And I called him Sunday afternoon
after I got to Minneapolis, and he said, "We've had a little
cold snap, and I can't find my long underwear." And I said,
"Well, it's not that cold is it?" He said, "Well, I'd be
comfortable in it." And I told him what drawer it was in.
He said, "I looked in there, and I... I said, "You just didn't
dig deep enough in the drawer," I said, "but you won't freeze
to death til I get there." I said, "I'll be there...", I think
it was Thursday I told him I'd be here. And he said...and I
said, "My plane will land at just 10 o'clock", or whatever,
and he repeated the time. And I think that was the last; I
know the last conversation we had. It was probably the last
thing I heard him say, except goodby. So when I came...I was
writing my report on the plane; I changed in Dallas, and I'd
just about finished the DR: longhand copy of my report. And
ROBINSON, Tape 2
5
when I got to Tyler I could always see him standing out because
the plane was so small, it was just like you were sitting in
a car. And I didn't see him. And when I got out, my sister
and her husband and a friend and his daughter was standing there.
My sister is Lotta Bell Alton and her husband is Will Alton
and the friend was S.E. Palmer, who was undertaker from... he
lived in Tyler...he was an undertaker from Jacksonville - he
and his daughter was standing there. And I said, "Where is
Frank?" And my sister just threw her arms out, like that; she
didn't say anything. But the friend's daughter said, "Dead."
And I said, "Car wreck?" She said, "No, somebody killed him."
And I said, "Well, get my luggage; I'm ready." And they got
my luggage. And in July, prior to his death, prior to the
October...I had written these words, "Weep not with me, lest
my sorrow become more intense." I don't know why I wrote it,
but between Tyler and Palestine I finished that, and I'll find
you a copy of that before you leave. And when I came, well,
naturally they had removed his body and had even cleaned up
the garage and everything. The police were criticized later
for having that cleaned up so soon, because they said they didn't
have time to...they did it before they had...
CW: ...Evidence?...
DR: ...enough time to do a good examination of it. So that
was about it. The police were all around, asking questions
DR: and that kind of thing. And at first the Chief had told
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
3
some of the people, including Timothy Smith, it was a clear case of homicide. But before the week was gone, the Chief was saying suicide. And the governor - who was it? It was John Hill or White, or whoever the governor was - sent a special investigator down, and a young black man whose name was - I'll think of that next week - but anyway, we had some cooperation from Austin. But much of it, I'm sure, was just swept under the rug. It was February before I even got a death certificate. The death certificate got lost, the records got lost, something happened and something happened. And then when I did get the death certificate - and I had to sign for it - that was when I really broke down because it said, "Death from a self-inflicted massive wound". And I knew that Frank Robinson did not kill himself. I cried like a baby. And the official who was working with me said, "I'm terribly sorry. If there's anything I can ever do, just let me know." Well, the...our DA told me to, "If you find anything, any lead that I can use, let me know." But to be perfectly honest I don't think they were really honest about that. And then the Sheriff finally was going to run for re-election and he said, "I thought you were my friend." I said, "Well, I am your friend." And he said...something came up...and he said, "Well, I'll get this suspect and have him subjected to..." What is it?
CW: Lie detector?
DR: Lie detector; that's not what...[inaudible] And I said, Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
4
"Well, I know what the result will be." But he brought me a letter from the person who conducted it and said that this subject knows something about the death of Frank Robinson. I had...one man made a tape, and I have a copy of that tape, where this young man was working with a group of others and they were on one of these...at a school where they were learning to repair dents on car bodies. This was some kind of government school, and they were learning car repair or something. And this young man was just sitting out, listening - he was crippled and he didn't work - he was just sitting out, listening, and he heard one ...one of the kids said to him, "Don't bother him, he killed a man." And this guy said, "Yes, I killed a man, but I got paid for it." Well, the day that Frank was killed this young man was absent from class for a while. At the inquest - the school was in operation, that was before this building was destroyed - and the kids said that they saw a truck leave here with a man with a yellow shirt. They saw a man running down the fence row, and they heard 4 shots. The police found 3 shotgun shells immediately. And they found the 4th one down close to the fence that separates my property from the school property. The prosecuting attorney said that the kids probably thought they saw something. And furthermore, the kids were too far away to know what color a person's shirt was. And my neighbor was placed on the DR: stand, and she said that she had... The man that did the autopsy said Frank hadn't Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
5
had anything to eat in 24 hours. Well, my sister had been here
visiting, and she brought him some stew, and she said he said
it was the best stew he'd ever eaten. And her husband tried
to get Frank to go home with him, and Will said he doesn't know
to this day why he wanted Frank to go home with him. And said
Frank said. "Man, I've got too much to do, I can't go home with
you." But my neighbor who lives right over here brought Frank
dinner within this 24 hour period. So that had to be a mistake.
But when the neighbor went on the stand and testified that
Frank had eaten because she brought him food, the prosecuting
attorney said she lied. Those are the very words - she lied.
And that was very painful to me. And also for the neighbor.
In fact, the neighbor wanted to get up and dispute him. But
that was just about the gist of it. The inquest lasted 2 days.
And it was supposed to have said to have been one of the longest
inquests ever been held, or something. But Richard's - the
governor's ex-husband...
CW: Dick? Is his name Dick Richards? Or...
DR: Uh-huh.
CW: Oh, well, it doesn't matter.
DR: Whatever it is. But anyway, he came down and was here
for the inquest and had another young man with him. I can't
remember his name, but I definitely remember Richards be-cause
when I left the stand, Ann was with him then, and she DR:
said, "My husband said you made a very good witness."
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
6
And I said, "Well, I just told the truth, you know, whatever it was to be told."
Now if you have some special questions,...well, you know, talk went...you could...I had a new car in the garage and the shots from the shell just had little pockmarks all on the front fender of my car. And there for a long while, if you opened the door or shake anything out there, the shots would fall off the wall. And after I came that afternoon - the evening I came in - some of his brain was still on the wall. And I...a man reached up - one of the officals - and I said, "What is that?" And he said, "You would ask that, wouldn't you?" But all told, they were as solicitous to me, I guess, as they could be. But it was definitely a cover-up deal. Beyond the county judge, who was the judge when the case was filed, was conveniently out of town; he was out of town. And the shotgun...Frank had his father's shotgun, but it was just a keepsake; he didn't use it. But that shotgun was in the garage, was kept in the garage closet in my garage. I haven't seen that shotgun since. But I don't think Frank's arm was long enough to have shot himself with a shotgun. And why 4 shots? If you want to kill yourself, you don't need but one.
CW: You're not going to miss. Yeah.
DR: Unh-unh. But the kids at County Corrections, they said they heard 4 shots. And the police finally found 4 shells, DR: just like...Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
7
CW: And why would you shoot down by the fence row?
DR: I guess, I don't know. But that's about the gruesome part of it. The newspapers, of course...but I guess, I suppose, I gave... In the material you had, I guess you had news clippings - you must have had - they'd probably been in an evelope all by themselves.
CW: I didn't see them, but I didn't go through the file that carefully. Did...I mean, it seems so clear when you're ...it just seems like. how could you cover up something like that? Or how could you concoct a story that obviously didn't fit the circumstances?
DR: Well, if you've got enough people cooperating with you, it's very easy to do.
CW: Well, but if you had a representative from the gover-nor's office...do you think he was in on it? Or...
DR: No. I think... No. I think the local police...and I don't think they were in it in the beginning, because the Chief first said homicide. I think somebody told him what to say, to change his story. Because the man who conducted the autopsy said homicide, but when he got on the stand he said suicide. And said the man hadn't eaten in so long. So I think the finally testimonies were bought. That's what I think. And I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
CW: So the gun wasn't here?
DR: Haven't seen that gun since. But Frank wasn't shot DR:Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
8
with his own gun, because that old gun wasn't even used, Honey. But he was shot with a shotgun. But the young man that I think...and the one that was subjected to the lie detector test lived on this place. And those...and Frank had such a tender heart towards kids...those kids would come over here and say, "I want to borrow Mr. Robinson's axe." And I'd say, "Honey, do you know where...?" "Yes, ma'am; I know." And they would go right to the garage and get whatever they wanted. And his father's gun stayed in the closet out in the garage. And I haven't seen that gun. So I think whatever gun they found at his body - I never saw it. I mean, I didn't even get his clothes back; in fact, I didn't want his clothes if they were bloody and all. I didn't want his clothes. So whatever gun was used, I'm sure it wasn't his gun. And it...but his gun is gone. So I guess that was... But it was pretty well planned, though. Because they knew...see, everybody on this place - except me and that neighbor who was old and retired like I was - everybody else had gone to work. These are young people who live up here. And they knew I was out of town. So I think the kids that lived up here at [inaudible]...said this is a good time...and that's what... Now that's just my imagi-nation, but... But this is what I know: Frank James Robinson would never have killed himself. He was too busy and too involved in what he was doing. He was planning a meeting of the East Texas Forum, was to meet here in DR: November. Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
9
They had out some tickets and whatnot; they were raising some
money for something and the program was getting ready, had
reserved the hotel rooms up here at the Town and Country and
all like that. And he was just going 50 to a 100, just involved;
and he was not... And he went to the...he suffered also from
a stomach ulcer. And when-ever he'd get real involved in
something, that ulcer would act up. So he had a few bad days
and I'd call the doctor. I said, would you make Frank come in
and talk with him? So the doctor called him and said, "Dorothy's
going to quit you if you don't come out here." He went out
there, and the doctor put him in the hospital for about 2 or
3 days. And then the story got out that he cancer, and he
committed suicide because he didn't have cancer...because he
had cancer. The doctor came as one of the witnesses at the
inquest and said, "No, it was true. He had been in the hospital
but it was from a chronic condition; it was nothing new", and
that Frank was in no mood to indicate that he was thinking about
suicide. And he didn't think about suicide. CW: Didn't you
tell me before something horrible...that they even accused you
of...?
DR: Oh, yeah. There was some indication that maybe I had
...maybe I killed him or had him killed. yeah. That's right.
That never did gain a lot of ground that I knew of. But that
was mentioned. The girl that works here for me, she was
questioned pretty seriously as to how did we get DR:
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
10
along? Did she ever hear us quarreling? And all that kind of stuff. And of course, the answer was no. Because if we quarreled, we surely didn't do it in her presence. [laughter] And it wasn't enough for anybody to go and commit suicide about. Wasn't anymore than the average disagreements.
CW: That must have hurt a lot, to have that loss and then have that...
DR: Well, really, that didn't bother me too much. I'm so used to...[laughter]... In 1923 somebody - I was 14 - some-body told a story on me, said something about I was acting bad in church, and I wasn't guilty. I cried all day long. And my father said to me, "You say you want to be a teacher. You say... Let me tell you something, anybody in public life will be lied on." He said, "Now if you're not guilty, just stop crying and know you're going to be lied on in life if you're in public work." And whenever somebody tells a lie on me I think about that. So that didn't worry me. I think, as I look back now, I guess I had a kind of a buffer or a shield or something. I don't remember the first night I stayed here alone. It's completely blocked out. And after Frank was buried, I went home with my sister. I don't remember a thing about that! Absolutely nothing. And a friend told me recently, she said, "Well, you sure went, because you called me and told me you were going home with your sister." I don't remember that. So I think I was DR: emotionally...and people will tell Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
11
me things I did at the funeral. I don't even remember that. One lady said I passed by and spoke to her and said I smiled. I don't remember it. So I guess it was an emotional blockout and that protected me, I guess. But I had the strangest ex-perience, though, one night. And Frank never used curse words, he did not curse, he did not use curse words, unless he was repeating what somebody else had said. I still have the twin beds in there, and I don't know if I were awake or if I was asleep, but I do know that I was awake when I responded. It looked like he came - and I don't believe in ghosts either, [laughter] but it looked like he came to the hall and stood at the bedroom door and he said, "Dear, it's a damn lie." And I said just as plainly as I'm talking to you, I said, "You don't need to tell me; I know you didn't kill yourself." And I was wide awake when I made that response. But I don't know if I was wide awake or if I was dreaming when it seemed like I heard him say... And it looked like he was standing just as plainly, and then after I said...after he said, " It's a damn lie", and I said, "You don't have to tell me; I know you didn't kill your-self", he just faded, just faded back; he didn't come forward, I didn't see any movement of arms or legs, he just faded back in the... But, really, [laughter] he... And I dream of him a lot, but we never have conversation, but we're doing things together. But never have conversation. DR: But we're just going someplace together. But if I have a problem, Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
12
first thing is, "What would Frank do? What would Frank say?
What would be Frank's advice?" And I've never yet failed,
if I followed through with some advice that...that if I followed
through the advice that he would have given. And they are always
such common sense things, you know. I'll be sitting there -
got a problem, I need to see so-and-so, and he'd say, "Don't
bother with the under-lings; go to the top brass if you can
get there; always go to the top brass." So I had little
problems, I'd call the chief of the police; I didn't bother
with any...[laughter] ...and I got hold of the chief too. And
I got my problem solved too. But it was a wonder. If I had
been married... if I married a thousand men, I'd never get a
better husband than Frank Robinson. And that doesn't mean that
he was perfect, either. But we were pretty near perfect for
each other. Because he understood me, and he accepted me for
what I am. And I understood him and accepted him for what he
was. And we supplemented each other. He had strengths in areas
where I didn't. I had strengths where he didn't have areas.
And we'd put those together. And we were recognized as a team.
One of...this large placque right here just to the right of
that stove, that heater, is to both of us. Not to one, but
to both, for our working to-gether.
CW: When I was here before you were thinking of re-opening
DR: the case - you were considering that - have you decided
anything? No; no, I haven't. [laughter] I perhaps should,
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
13
but I still don't feel up to it; I really don't. I've thought about...I don't know. No, I haven't, I haven't decided. It crosses mind every now and then, and then I think it would just be a re-opening of wounds that are fairly well healed, and I don't know that anything... What good could really come out of it?
CW: I don't know. Truth.
DR: [laughter] And that is a good, isn't it?
CW: That is a good.
DR: Well, you know, I think most of the people who knew Frank know he didn't kill himself. And certainly the people who did it know he didn't kill himself. Now I work with people every day - not every day but, I mean, on different committees - and I know a lot of those people know far more about the details than I do. For a long while the chief of police wouldn't meet me on the street - he's not here any-more - he's someplace else. And I was speaking to a church group up in Frankston, and a lady asked me - this was a white group - and she said, "Did they ever find out who killed your husband?" We had this Q & A period, and I said, "No, ma'am; they haven't". And I said, "But I think there are people who already know". And I just when on to some-thing else, and when I finished my address and you know how they'll come by and shake hands or something, and one man DR: said, when he shook my hand, he said, "Put this in your purse." I said, "Thank you", and kept on with what Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
14
I was doing. When I got in the car and looked, there was a $100 bill, and I guess he just felt sorry for me. [laughter] I guess he just felt sorry for me. But...and every now and then somebody will, if they mention it, usually they'll say something to the effect that you must be a very strong woman. You know, why do you still stay here? Or, aren't you afraid to stay here? I had friends in California that begged me, "Please, they're going to get you next." And I said, "I don't think I'm a threat to them; they got the one they wanted, because they... this is what the people who were responsible for Frank's death knew, that if they got Frank Robinson they wouldn't only kill a man, they'd kill a movement." And that's exactly what they did, so far as Palestine and East Texas is concerned. When Frank Robinson died some movements died. And that was the enemy's whole goal, so they made A, alright. But some of the things that he and the others who worked with him accomplished were... are still in operation. So I try to look at the positive side of that - that he did not die in vain, the things that he worked for there's still some evidence there of success. And that's about all I guess you can hope for because, you know, Jesus Christ died, Abe Lincoln died, John Kennedy died and so many people for what they believed. And then I remember what he said, "Change is always painful and DR: som times it causes bloodshed. So...
CW: How did the town react?Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
15
DR: Uh?
CW: How did the town react? What...
DR: Well, I think, by and large, everybody was in sympathy - black and white. And some of the black people said we ought to have a riot, we ought to set the town on fire, and all that kind of stuff. And I said, No! And I think the people who felt like I felt said, "No, that's not going to help anything." So most people did not believe that Frank Robinson killed himself. And most people - even people who probably felt that he was trying to do too much too soon -I don't think they would have subscribed to murder; I don't think so. So, I don't think...I really think it was just a very...and again I say, I'm not very perceptive, I could be way off track, I don't think it was a whole...everybody in Palestine. I mean, even everybody in authority; all the white people didn't want Frank killed. The chief of police, I don't think, was into it, but I think he was told... After he said 'homicide', he was told...he was coached then as to what to say. That's what I'm thinking. And I'm not at all sure that the FBI...because they never did really come in and do anything about it. They just didn't know whether civil rights had been...what is it you do to your civil rights? - violated or not - and they didn't even try to find out. The...we had a...the district judge that was DR: appointed shortly after Carter became president - he has a state office now and I can't even call his name nor the office Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
16
he holds - was in Tyler, his office was in Tyler. I went up to see him, and he said, "Well, I'm going to get some answers that satifies me." And he made a stab at something, got a call from somebody, but nothing happened. And that was supposed to have been connected with some KKKs from Alabama or someplace, so... And I went to Benson's office, and his office was as cooperative, I guess, as - I went to Washington - as it could be And he says, "When we get a Democrat up there in that Tyler office, then we can probably get something done." Well, that was when I went to see...oh, what was the man's name? I can't even think of it now...but he promised to help, but [I] got a call or two and it died. And that's just about the size of it. I don't feel up to opening it again, though. I'd just have to live over...it all over again. And it's kind of like if the scab gets over a sore you kind of leave it there; you keep picking at it, it gets worse. [laughter] I would cooperate with it, if somebody else decided to run with it. But I don't want to handle it; I really don't. I don't...I just don't think I could; it would be too painful. That's really what I'm trying to say. To go through all of that again, it would...but somebody knows the truth. And it's somebody... they are somebodies that I see quite often, I'm sure, and ...
CW: Do you think about that? [inaudible]
DR: Rarely. I can shut some things out of my mind. And I'm...somebody asked me, too, what punishment would I suggest Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
17
or would I like to see imposed on the person who killed him? Would I like to see him go to the...get the death penalty? And I said, "No, not really." And I tell you what I think about more than anything else - I wonder what were Frank's last thoughts, when he got out there and that..." Because, evidently, they made him go in the garage - his eye glasses where left in the house - and I just would ...I imagine he wondered about Dear - that was what he called me, Dorothy Dear - and I just would have like to know his last thoughts. And that, of course, I'll never know. So there's no point in even thinking about it. [laughter] No point in thinking about that. But so far as...to me he still lives in the result of the work that he's done. I... this column that I have down at the Press is pretty senti-mental, because I said people ask me...well, my brother said, "Why don't you move to San Francisco?" I said, "How can I move? Frank put that old pecan tree out there; I can't leave that pecan tree. He made this table; I can't leave that table." So, it's...I have a very sentimental attachment, but, you know, you can experience a healing that you think is impossible. Because I never thought that I could even live contentedly without Frank. But time takes care of a lot of things, and the good Lord heals. So I'm DR: relatively content. I have...it took me about 4 years to realize that I was not still married. I felt very married. And a guy that I used to date before I met Frank called Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
18
me from San Francisco, from Oakland - not Oakland, Los Angeles
- and he had lost his wife, and he started to calling. And
that...I said, "I feel married". He said, " I do, too." But
we're not married. Just the fact that that guy made contact
with me helped me; it freed me a lot. Just to know that there
is life in spite of the fact that Frank is gone; you've got
a life of your own. And yet I never feel separated from
him...from...
CW: When did that guy call you? Has that been recently?
DR: About 4 years after Frank died, about 4 years. He still
calls occasionally, but it's not anything kind of serious
relationship. But at any rate, it freed me from feeling
married. Not...it didn't free me from Frank, but it freed me
from being married - that I'm my own person, I've got to make
my own decisions and see after my ownself, run my own errands,
pay my own bills, and that kind of thing. If the yard needs
mowing, I've got to get out and see that somebody mows it.
I'm an individual and I'm responsible for me. And I don't have
anybody to depend on; it's that kind of thing that has helped
me a lot. And then I've been extremely busy. I am still
extremely busy and that helps a lot. If I just had to sit down
and look at the walls and remember, 'Frank used to do this,
and Frank did that, and DR: here's his signature over here,
and all that', I would be terribly blue. But this is what he
would want me to do. Frank would want me to stay. And one
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
19
thing about it, I tell some of my friends all the time, Frank taught me to be a good widow. [laughter] Because he would tell me, he would make me. I was going to drive from here to San Francisco by myself. Now, how many men would let a wife start out with that. And he would say, "All you need is time and a good car. It's the money and you've got that - go on." You know, he would...I went to Europe and stayed 30 days with no Frank - his schedule wouldn't let him go. I didn't even have another lady friend with me... Now how many men and how many women would be crazy enough to do it? And how many men would be crazy enough to let her do it?
CW: [laughter]
DR: Frank just, "You can do anything, Dear. Go on; sure you can do it. Why, certainly. What's going to stop you?" You know he was just that kind of person. He had a lot of confidence in himself; he had a lot of confidence in me. And he just felt that whatever you wanted to do, just don't look for barriers or why; don't look for why you can't do it; just get up and do it. And that... I did a column fairly recently on a woman who had lost her husband and she came here for me to do something for her, and whatever it was I wasn't in a position to do it, but I could give her some help, I thought. And she left here crying, and the DR: last thing she said was, "I don't know anything; my husband did everything." And she was just crying. And I thought, well, that's one blessing; Frank didn't do Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
20
everything. And he made me feel responsible. And made me feel that I could cope. And that's really important in a husband-wife situation. It really is. So...but that hasn't anything to do with him and civil rights, though.
CW: Well, I know, but it's an important part of the story.
DR: Well...
CW: And, actually, I think it ties in, you know. You said you wanted to talk about his relationship with young people, and if he could do that for young people, too.
DR: Well, he did. Whether it was a church scene, NAACP, 4:H Club, or just regular classrooms, or whatever it was, he just had a sort of, he could sort of charm them. One thing, he was more understanding and more lenient with them. He could...he took my friend's teen-aged girls, once - well, they were sub-teens, I guess - to a playground; they were doing all these wild rides and what-not, and one of them said to him, "Uncle Frank, we sure are glad you're with us 'cause you don't tell us what not to do." So, I think that's the philosophy of a lot of people. The kids that come in here, young men would come in with their hats on, I'd be just dying inside, and he'd look at me and I'd have to sit here, if I stayed in here, and looking at all these crazy hair-dos and all that kind of thing. But he... DR: because he was...see, he could lend himself to their way of thinking, I guess. And he had a lot of success stories. It's a young fellow was on a movie - a serial movie, Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
21
a TV thing, and I can't remember the name to save my life, but he was one of Frank's students. And Frank...the boy was in an oratorical contest and Frank would bring that boy - that was at Butler School - he would bring him over here for me to help him with his public speaking, and when the kid got this role on this TV thing, he called me to tell me. He said, "Mrs. Robinson, I never would...if Mr. Robin-son hadn't brought me over there to you..." And after Frank died, this kid would call me about every 3 or 4 weeks until he felt that I was, you know, pretty well in...had a hold of myself. But I could just go down the line, story after story after story, that young people would call, even now, and say, "You know, Mr. Robinson did such and such thing for me." There's a young man that works in the school system here, said he was about to stop with a bachelor's degree, and Frank said, "Man, don't stop with a bachelor's degree." Said, "They're two-bits a dozen." Said, "You go on and get you advanced degree. Go on and get your doctorate. What's going to stop you?" You know, that kind of thing. Just a word or two from him had impact on kids and it was... And they didn't tire him. When I had a day at school, when I got home I didn't want anymore kids.
CW: [laughter]
DR: And I remember one of the times he angered me more, I guess, than any other specific instance. I had come from school, dead-tired, and some kids called me and asked me if they could Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
22
come over and gets some magazines, and I said, "Yes, honey, but don't come now". I said, "Come tomorrow". And Frank said, "You don't like children, do you?" I said, "What in the world do you mean? I have spent the day with them". And I ran down the line of what all I...I've given them medicine, I've taken them to the bathroom, I've done this, and you tell me I don't lik ... But it looked like his patience never ended where kids were concerned. And he was equally affable with people. I never heard him have an argument with anybody, and if it were an argument it was a very friendly argument. But a lot of times, if he thought things were getting serious, he would throw something very humorous into it, you know. He was...a lot of people just thought of him - a lot of his peers - as the "fun guy" in the group, because he would carry so much light-weight stuff. I remember one time I said to him - I don't know what made me say it - I said, "Oh, Frank, I can tell when you're telling the truth; I can tell when you're lying." He said, "Oh, really?" He said, " You know one thing", said, "That was sure bad about John Hunter killing that man today". I said, "Did John Hunter kill a man?" He said, "I thought you knew when I was..." [laughter]... "thought you knew when I was lying". And I remember once I had told him DR: something I wanted for Christmas, and just before Christmas he came in with a little, just a little box like this, it was neatly wrapped. And I said, "Oh, my Lord, this is...", and I opened it and it Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
23
was a bunch of rusty screws, just a lot of old nails or something
he had picked up. And he's just watching my face and I'm looking
funny, and then he gave me the real gift. [laughter] So he
could do a lot of funny things like that to create a lot of
levity. And And he never met strangers. I remember when we
went to the Far East, we were the only black couple in the group
and Frank didn't drink coffee. And one day somebody said, "
You don't drink coffee?" He said, "No, it makes me black".
[laughter] I nearly got the biggest kick out of that. And
in India I guess they'd seen so few black people...maybe we'd
be in the bus, on public transportatiion, they'd see Frank and
they'd just look, and I'd say, "Frank, put your head out the
window, so they can see a black man. Yeah, here's a black man,
here's a black man." [laughter] Just like that. And I don't
know whether he did that to cover up deeper feelings or if that
was really the Frank, but that was...he was always, if things
got too serious. And then sometimes he would say, if maybe
I was going to worrying about the results, he'd say, "Oh, what
does it matter? 100 years from today it won't matter; nobody'll
know about it anyway." You know, just like he could throw it
off. Just like that. A very patient person too. He was
not...he was DR: just a contrast to me, because I wanted
to do every-thing like this... Well, I imagine it'll be there
tomorrow if you don't get to it today. It's not going to run
off. You can do tomorrow. And his sleeping habits - he slept
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
24
in a...I can't think of the word I want...in shifts. He'd go
to bed early, real early, might go to bed at 8 o'clock. He'd
probably get up at 1 and work til 4. Go back to bed, get up
at 6, work til 10, go back to bed. Now when he was teaching,
he couldn't do that, but that was after he retired. And I
remember once when he was in Extension Service, his boss came
and Frank was in the bed - workday, mid-day - Frank was in the
bed. Man said, "What are you doing in the bed?" He said, "Well,
you go to bed either when you're sick and when you're tired
or sleepy. And I'm not sick. In other words, I'm...", the
man laughed at him and said, "Oh, Rob, you're crazy." [laughter]
What else can I say about him? My family was his family.
And his family was my family. We helped my kid brothers through
school and would have helped his brothers. But there was a
time when he said, "That's your family; we're spending money
on your family." And there never was a time when I would say
that about his. Or when Christmas time came, each of his sisters
and brothers had children, all of mine had children except one
sister, so we didn't have...we had to get...we didn't have to,
but we got toys or something for all of the kids. And Frank
was never concerned about it because he knew DR: 'Dear' was
going to get whatever it was supposed to get. And five chances,
he didn't even worry about giving me the money to go get it.
"Well, Dear, I know you're going to see after it." And that
was that. And I was...and at the family reunion recently one
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
25
of his nieces said - well, she's not a little niece anymore,
she's got grandchildren - she said, "Aunt Dorothy, I'll always
remember that every Christ-mas I got that doll." And I said,
"Yeah, and there was a whole lot of other...you didn't get a
big one, there were so many other little ones had to have a
doll, [laughter] have a doll too." But...and my parents were
extremely fond of Frank. I remember my father told him, one
time, he was glad to have him in the family. And that made
Frank feel so good. And my father said that the fact that Frank
had worked his way through school was an inspiration to my
brothers and the younger ones. Because you don't have to have
a lot of money to go to school. If you're willing to make the
sacrifice, you can go to school. So that was a very pleasing
thing when he would say... If I'd say, you know, something
like, "Oh, I don't know why I married you." You know, just
in jest, he'd say, "Well, your Daddy said he was glad to have
me in the family." [laughter] And then sometimes he would
say...and I actually prayed before we married, I believe a lot
in prayer. And I prayed to the Good Lord that if we weren't
supposed to be husband and wife, for something to happen to
break it up. And of course DR: nothing happened. And if
I'd say something and he'd say, "Well, Dear, you can't quit
me, you said the Lord put us together." [laughter] All that
crazy kind of stuff. And I'd say, "I'm going to pray about
so-and-so." And he'd say, "God doesn't have time to see after
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
26
that; you can manage that yourself. You don't have to worry
God; you worry God about the big things." [laughter] And
always...I never... and I'm sure he was angry with me at
sometimes, but whenever he was the most disgusted, he would
call me Mrs. Robinson. [laughter] He'd say, "Mrs. Robinson,
you're not saying... what you're saying isn't anything!" And
he'd go out and get in the car and slam the car door! And I'd
say, "Now that's that lick he meant for me!" [laughter] But
he was fun to live with. And cooked his own breakfast most
of the time because I don't eat breakfast. And we didn't have
any help to come in that early, so he'd cook his own breakfast.
And the girl that'd been with me for years started drinking,
and I had to let her go. So he had retired then, and he said...
and I was looking for somebody...he said, "You're having such
a hard time finding somebody, if you can stand my cooking, I'll
cook." And so he would. I'd come home, he'd have dinner ready.
I didn't like his cooking, but I didn't like to cook either.
END OF TAPE II, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
TAPE II, Side 2
DR: [inaudible] ...giving a person a shirt off your back.
DR: I saw Frank, actually, in that bedroom, take off his
trousers and give them away. And I'd say, "What did you do
...?" He'd say, "I've got another pair. [laughter] Said,
"That man didn't have anything; I've got another pair." And
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
27
would give...I can find notes here that he paid off notes with people at the bank, and God knows he didn't have that kind of money. But if somebody'd come up and say, "Mr. Robinson, I sure need some money - I need $25, $30, $50 or whatever." If he didn't have it in his pocket to give, and he probably didn't, 'cause he was a free spender, he'd go down to the bank and borrow the money and give it to the... and then have to pay it back, half of the time, And that's why the notes are still here, because the person wouldn't pick it up and he'd go and take care of it. And I'd say, "You know, we need so-and-so and you did so-and-so-and-so." He said, "Yeah, I know, but we can still get whatever...what is it you need? You need it? How bad you need it?" [laughter], you know, and kind of treat it lightly like that. He was 74 when he passed. Now, he did not look it. He had all of his teeth except one. He wasn't bald headed. Always wore his hair cut short, so he didn't have all this Afro business. Now, what else can I say about him?
CW: Did he have an NAACP Youth Group?
DR: Yes, ma'am. And we haven't had one since he died.
CW: Um. What kind of things did he happen to...?
DR: Well, one thing was, he interested them in politics. DR: And if they were old enough to vote, he encouraged them to vote. We had, at one time here, the people who worked for cleaning up the city - what do you call it? - the people who swept the streets and all that kind of thing. We had black Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
28
and white worked, but they had separate eating places and separate drinking fountains. And the Youth NAACP got on that. To make a long story short, the mayor resigned.
CW: Why? I have time for a long story. [laughter]
DR: And the young man who was the president of the Youth Group at that time is practicing dentistry here now. That was one of the things they did. They had on a movement to stay in school, not to drop out of school. And it was fairly active when the schools were first desegregated. So he worked with them to develop techniques for not being too sensitive to everything that is said or done. You know, you've got to lend yourself out to be friendly and ac-cepting. And I think they got along very well with that. We had one or two little run-ins over at the high school. And Frank and some of the other adults who were working with the kids would go over and talk with the school authorities. We got along much better than a lot schools did. In fact, I think we got along better in the early days of integration than we got - and desegregation - than we're getting. I'm hearing more problems now than I heard then.
CW: Why is that, do you think?
DR: I don't know. The whole climate throughout, across the DR: country, is far less...more unsettled now than it was 30 years ago, 25 years ago. So I guess it's just a part of the, you know, with kids committing crimes - teen-agers - we didn't have all that back in the early '70s. And it was the year of Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
29
'70...our first step at desegregation of schools here took place in '66, I guess it was. We transferred a few teachers, one or two blacks - it was either '66 or '67 - from the black schools to the whites and a few whites to the blacks, to just kind of feeling our way, so to speak, I guess. And the school board had our superintendent go to Washington to see if they wouldn't relax some of the demands they were making. And the superintendent told them it won't do any good to go. It's a law and we're going to have to obey it. And, incidently, Frank would go to trustee meetings and that's something most black nor white would do. And Frank was in meeting this particular night when the superintendent was ordered to go, and he told the board that, and the president of the board said, " Well, you do what we tell you to do." So the superintendent went to Washington and he came back just like he said, "You're going to have to do what they said do." And the superintendent... at that time we were having...the black principals would meet with the superintendent at one time and the white principals would meet at another time - the principals weren't meeting together. And being a black principal, I was in the black principal's meeting and the superintendent DR: said, "I hope I never have to go through anything else that embarrassing." So then in '70 we were at the end of the school year - the school year of '69 and '70, the spring of '70 - when schools closed. We were told, "Any personal effects you have, you take Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
30
them with you because you don't know where you will be assigned
for next year." And that was when we really completely
desegregated schools in Pales-tine. And I was the only black
person named to a principal-ship. There was one...there were
two other black principals and they were given...they were
called supervisory jobs - you're going to supervise - but
the...as I understand it, the job descriptions were never very
clear. So at the end of the year, one of those black men left
the teaching profession and the other one was given a regular
principal-ship job. And the statement among the black
community was that they found out he wasn't going to rape any
of the white women. So they gave him a job. [laughter] And
he stayed on as a principal until he passed away, until he retired
-he's now passed away. But we were...once we decided that we
had, we really had to desegregate, I mean to tell you we in
our classrooms, we had to make sure that in each classroom that
we had... The Hispanics were so few they were almost a nonentity
25, 30 years ago, but we had to have 1/3 black and 2/3 white
because that was the composition of our scholastic population.
And if in the room it was found out that you were not pretty
close to that ratio, those children were DR: skipped about.
And then if one school was out of line, the kids were transferred
to make sure that every school and every room had almost 2/3
white and 1/3 black. And, really, when we knew that we had
to do it, we did a much better job than a lot of communities
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
31
did because we did not have... I don't remember any real
incident that was based on racial bias or racil inequities.
And I can certainly say for the school where I worked, 2/3 of
my staff was white and 1/3 was black, and we got along just
fine, just fine. I went, when I was...I held a meeting with
the staff before school started, and I said, "Now, I want you
to look at each other and whatever you want to see - how different
you are - you figure it out before Monday, because when those
kids get here I don't intend for them to see white teachers
or black teachers - I want them to see good teachers." And
said my prayers. [laughter] And I had a marvelous
relationship and I stayed there until I retired. And we just
got along, and so far as I know, that was the general atmosphere
throughout all the schools. And we...there were places where
black teachers were fired. No black teacher was fired in
Pales-tine, to my knowledge, because he was black. But what
has happened, when black teachers have retired they have not
been replaced by whites or, I mean by blacks. And that was
what I mentioned a few minutes ago when I said we have not had
a sophisticated strategy for recruiting teachers. So we're
down to very, very few - the percentage of black DR:
teachers in Palestine - I don't know what it is but it
is extremely low now, very, very low.
CW: What about the whole issue? And I don't remember if we
talked about this before, but the issue of it was the black
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
32
schools that were closed and the black kids that were sent to the white schools. Was that a problem here?
DR: Yes, yes. Uh, that was...no, not really. Because the school that was here in this vacant space that...the storm of, the tornado of '87 destroyed that building - that was the black high school. So that school was continued in use as the junior high, and black and white and everybody came there. The school up on the hill here was a black school and white kids were transferred there. So, we only closed one school, and it was kind of out on the edges of town like. And we...only one school was closed at the time of desegregation. We have closed one or two others since then for other economic reasons. But, no, our schools were not closed. And teachers were not fired, so far as I know. I remember the superintendent told me one teacher, her English was so bad - it was bad - and he said to me, "You know," he said, "She'll hurt you." I said, "She won't hurt me anymore than Mrs. Jay, who was on my staff, and her English is bad too. I said, "It won't hurt me anymore than her English is going to hurt you." And there was some talk about changing the name of this school. It was named A.M. Story, for a man - a black man who used to be the principal here - and I told DR: the superintendent, I said, "We have Thomas J. Rusk -that school is named for a white statesman; we have Sam Houston, a white statesman, we have Lamar, a white states-man". I said, "And if those schools, if those men are worthy examples Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
33
for black kids, as well as whites, then Storey ought to be equally good for blacks and whites." So this Storey - this school is still A.M. Storey School. But the school up here is named Washington, and it's named for Booker T. Washington. But the paper came out and said George Washington. So some old teacher straightened that out in the Press. We sent a letter to the Press and said, no; and we documented it. So, all told, Palestine, in spite of the fact we don't have the leadership that we once have had from black men, we have quite a few black women in town who are still...they are really carrying the torch, regretably, but it's better to have somebody than nobody. Now this CRC that I just mentioned - Community Relations Council - we have 3 black men on there, on the board, but we have 4 black women. So I'd rather see it the other way around - 4 men and 3 women.
CW: Why?
DR: Well, because you can say what you want to, people still respect men. I hate to admit it, but that's the way it is. I...it usually...we're in a male-oriented society. And I don't like it either, but that's the way it is. And a man, the presence of a man or a man's name, usually a man's DR: more respected than a woman. I'd rather see...I don't think women have done a lot, but I don't know that a woman could have done what Frank and Tim Smith and Rodney did. I don't know if they'd had that...had fulfilled that same role, I don't know that they Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
34
would have had...
CW: Especially at that time.
DR: Yeah, yeah, that is true, so... But maybe we could raise up some black youngsters who, with a black principal at the high school. We have trouble getting black coaches, and yet most of our atheletes, especially almost all the basketball kids and a large number of the football kids are black. And I think we have about 11 coaches on the coaching staff and had one black, and he left. So I don't know whether they'll find another one for this year or not; I don't know what the story will be. But these black boys certainly need some black men with whom they might identify. Or even if it was in scouting or something somewhere, because they're not at home. There's not a father figure in most of the black homes throughout the nation. I just got that figure the other day, and it's getting almost as bad across the board for all ethnic groups. But we're under-going a complete social revolution, whether we want to face it or not. And it's not a pleasant time to be living. But we might as well... Yesterday's paper mentioned that some ...these futurists have predicted that marriage, I've forgotten how many years, will be completely out; there'll DR: be no marriage. And you know what? I'm afraid to dispute them. [laughter]
CW: Well, I don't know, a couple of women at work just got married, and it surprised me they took their husband's last Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
35
name. You know that seems like they're kinda of going back to... actually 4 women in the past year...
DR: They're not following Rodney - I mean Hillary, uh?
CW: Well, she has her husband's last name.
DR: But I mean she's got her name...
CW: Yeah.
DR: Like I use my middle name, my family name.
CW: Uh-huh. I don't know if they're using it for their middle name, but they're definitely changing their names, which I think is interesting.
DR: But you said they are using their husband's? Or they are not?
CW: Yes. No, they are, they are. I don't know if they kept their maiden name's as a middle name, but I think that's an interesting...
DR: But when you look at the number of people who are just living together... I think that's was what these people were saying - that they didn't mean there would not be partnerships or unions, but they would not be legally tied together or united together. I think that was what they were... And then, they went on to talk about the freedom of changing - you'll stay with this person awhile and then move DR: on to somebody else. Well, it's a lot of that going on too. So, and it's...and what worries me about it is... That all the tape?
CW: Uh-huh.Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
36
DR: Oh, Lord... [laughter] ... What concerns me about it is, the people who we'd like...that the kids see as models, you know, I mean in the entertainment world, it's just so open. And you know, well, we lived together so long and then we got married. Well, to me that's just not what the way it ought to be! [laughter] Now, don't ask me why it ought to be the way I think it ought to be, but it's just because I've accepted that you get married, that's the honorable thing to do. Or you get married before you have children. Just last week I was in a conference with George Frazier, who has just written a book and it's getting a lot of publicity - it's "Success Runs in Our Race", that's the title, and he is black. But the book covers...it's not just about black, he's concerned about the unused possibilities of human networking that takes place everywhere. And ten major cities have contracted with him to write up a plan that they can use for networking within that particular city, to get the greatest benefit from what is available. And he says that there are 3 things he tells all children, no matter about the color: Be sure you finish high school - you've got to, to be able to be a contributing member to society as we know it. Be sure you do not have a criminal DR: record before you finish high school. Be sure you do not become a parent before you finish high school. If you can do those 3 things you're in pretty good shape to move forward, but if you fail to do either one of those you have shortened Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
37
and lessened your chances of doing anything worthwhile in this society.
CW: Well, that's great.
DR: And I don't know how much of that is soaking in. But when I look at the number of babies that are being born to children... An interesting thing, in 1971 I was the keynote speaker for the National Convention of the National Asso-ciation of Negro Business and Professional Women's Clubs and I made reference to that, and I said - I was listening to the tape the other day - it said, "I'm a voice speaking in the wilderness, because we have not recognized the danger and the situation that this is creating". That's been what? 24, 23 years ago. And we as a nation are just now getting serious about all these children born out of wedlock. And I don't have a bit of sense, and I knew that, when?, 20 some-thing years ago. Why have we shut our eyes to this thing so long? And then our only solution is abortions. And I hate to see my tax money spent...I'm wholly opposed to abortions unless a mother's life is at stake. I just, I'm just...it's the one thing that I know I have a closed mind about! And I'm not trying to open my mind on that. I'm a serious sup- porter of right to life. And I even sent them a little DR: change, as poor as I am - I'll give contribution to that. But we...and we have organized here and I'm on this board, too - Better Choice, that's the title of the project, Better Choice - and it's sponsored by our public schools. Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
38
It's...we have a fund for it, what do you call it? Not an allotment, whatever you call it.
CW: Endowment?
DR: Endowment. Whatever you get from the Government. But anyway, to work not only with the young women who are pregnant and unmarried, but with the young men who impreg-nated those girls. And it's... And do you know, we have whites, we have Hispanics, and we have blacks. And we've had 2 or 3 little babies born; nobody's gotten married, but we hope everybody is beginning to feel that, at least, I am responsible for what goes on over there. But I'm very dis-turbed about... But Frank used to tell me - I'd get up in the air about that - he said, "Bible didn't say anything about you had to be married to have children." He said, "Numbers are important." And he goes on to tell me, and he was an excellent Bible student - he had 4 years of Bible before when he was in Texas College - he had studied some-thing about the Bible. He talked about the number of Israelites, and God talked about numbers, and He did. And you talk about...who was the man that...? I tell you I'm somthing [inaudible]...but this man was going into battle and he so many people and he had them to drink water to DR: decide whether they were...make good soldiers...
CW: Oh, I remember the story - it depended on how they [inaudible]...
DR: But anyway, and God would tell him, "You don't need all Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
39
of those, you don't need all those." And he said, Frank would say, "There are times when numbers are important", and then he'd be talking about voting. It doesn't matter whether the man is a gambler, whether he's a bootlegger, but his vote counts. You go get him. He said... You'd be aitting up and looking at the folks in the choir, and at your church those are the people you're talking about voting. He said, "The vote of that gambler is just as strong as the preacher's vote. You get out there and get ahold of those." That was his philosophy - we need numbers to vote. Not necessarily what we call quality people, you need a vote. So...and when I'd get the word about the kids didn't have a daddy, and the girl's had a baby, "he said, "Well, that's one you can count, that's a voter." [laughter] About that time he'd be sort of comical about it, yu know.
CW: Was he a Mason? I see you have an Eastern Star ring on.
DR: Yes, he was 33 Degree.
CW: Um.
DR: And he managed to lose his Masonic ring out there in the garden, and somebody came by with, what?, a Geiger DR: counter or something, and found it, and he put it back on and lost it again. But his certificate still hangs in the office in there, I did not...I have not taken it down.
CW: Did that play a role in the...during the civil rights movement?Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
40
DR: I'm sure it did. You know, he prided the fact that he knew Thurgood Marshall personally. Because when he was initiated or whatever takes place when you become a 33 Degree Mason, Thurgood Marshall conducted the ceremony or whatever it was. So he was very, very proud of that. And the Masonics were very concerned with me, about me, at the time of his death. They are a very close-knit group of people there. I understand that it kind of transcends race too, to a great extent; they're just a Masonic brother is a Masonic brother.
CW: We really haven't talked about his, like national contacts...
DR: Well, Thurgood Marshall was one of national repute that he knew very well. And Benson. Benson came here once, visiting, and Frank had attempted to get an audience with him. And he told him, yes, he would see him but he was so busy that he did not get to see him during the allotted time. And he was motoring, and he had Frank to get in the car - he got in Frank's car. Now they're going towards Jacksonville and got in Frank's car, and they held a con-ference in Frank's car, and the car that he was travelling DR: in was coming along behind. And when they finished with their conversation, well, they stopped cars and he got in his car and went on, and Frank came... And that was one reason why I felt free to go to Benson's office when Frank was killed. I didn't know Benson personally, but I knew Frank knew him, and they carried on correspondence Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
41
quite a bit about voting and that kind of thing. So, now...and we went to Georgia, and he saw President Carter but he did not get a chance to talk with him. But that was during... That was on the last trip that Frank and I made together, we had ...we went to Atlanta and we stopped by...we went out of the way to get to Plains. And when we got there - and Plains, it's just about the size of Tucker - and we saw a lot of people at a...it looked like a school ground. He said, "I bet you there's something...I bet you that's something political going on over there." I said, "Well, you'd better stay out from there because you don't know what's going on and this is Georgia." So we found out where his house was and we wanted to see the house, so we went up to his street and when we got there there were guards, and they told us that that was as far as we could go. So Frank said, "Well, what's happening? Back over here we came down such-and-such a street and we saw quite a crowd." And the man said, "Well,..." Frank said, "Is it something political going on?" And he said, the man smiled and he said, "Well, I can't disuss that either." Frank said, "Yeah." I don't DR: know, they might have given some kind of Masonic sign, something. [laughter]. But anyway, we turned and went back over there. And Carter was making a very informal speech - that's the only time we ever saw President Carter. And there were blacks and whites, it was at the schoolyard and the school building was very modest, it looked like they needed a new Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
42
building. But the folks were just scattered all around, and
the man that's on 60 Minutes - this black man, Ed whatever his
name is...
CW: I don't know his name.
DR: ...but it's the black man that's on 60 Minutes - was
covering that meeting, and he's very tall, Frank was kind of
short, and Frank wanted to get a picture of Carter. So, what
was that guy's name? But he kept telling Frank, he said, "You
can come a little closer". And he just kept pushing him. And
there was a fly - it was a very hot summer day - and this fly
was just...and Carter kept fighting the fly. [laughter] And
Frank got the picture, but when we got to Atlanta and turned
the TV on in our hotel room, it was interesting to see the
President-elect fighting this fly. But it was a most rural
situation you can imagine, just a very modest building and
everybody there was just country folks like we were. Wasn't
any sophisticated thing at all. And he was just down to earth.
But that's...and I didn't ...I haven't even...I've never seen
a president except Carter, and that was before he was really
sworn in, before DR: he really had won the election. I
had a chance to see Clinton last spring, but I was tired and
I was in San Antonio to the AARP meeting, but I figured I'd
have to stand and my knees weren't going to let me stand, so
I didn't even see Clinton. I've never seen a president except
that time I saw Carter. But Frank offered his help, and when
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
43
Frank died there was a message from...there was a group here working in the interest of Carter's campaign - Mrs. Martin Luther King was with the group - so that group sent a condolence message when Frank passed away. So, he was...made it his point to ...because, you know, they didn't know Frank Robinson but he'd make it a point if somebody was running for office, and that was why he happened to...it was whoever the governor was when he passed - I think it was Hill, I believe, John Hill. He had...John Hill had a black guy who worked with him, that doesn't make sense, but, anyway, Frank wanted... It was...this black kid was named Leroy Beck, and he worked in the Secretary of State office. I was in Austin, and he told me to pick up a package from this office of the Secretary of State. So, they left it at my hotel, and when I picked it up and looked at it, I saw this black kid and I called Frank. "Did you know he's a black?a" And he said, "Oh, I've been knowing he's a black; you just didn't know it." But he made his contacts. And he followed through. If somebody here said, "So-and-so can help you". Or So-and-so is interested in this"... He wasn't good on social DR: correspondence or sending a Christmas card or a birthday card but he would follow through on leads, leads like that, and that was always a great... And then when he was working with Paul Ragsdale, that gave him entre to a lot of the folks who were in the legislature. So he made...he was good at net-working. I don't know that that word was that Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
44
popular then but that's a good word and he was very good at
net-working. And he was...he did not take it...he wouldn't
be turned-off easily. You know, if somebody... Well, for
instance, when that red book came off the press, he took a copy
of it to the judge...
CW: That's "Home Branches and Laurel Wreaths", for the record.
DR: Yeah. You have...
CW: Yeah, we have it. Uh-huh.
DR: Uh-huh. And this judge said - it's a page in there about
Frank - and the judge said, "Well, I don't think much of this
being in there, so you didn't do your...you don't help your
folks with this kind of stuff." And Frank said, "Well, Judge,
if you don't like it, just tear that out and read the rest of
the book." Said, "You don't need..." [laughter] And then he
was working to get a black Home Demonstration agent here. We
had had a black Home Demon-stration agent and she got married,
I think, and left, so the place was vacant. And Frank and
Timothy Smith, again, and some other blacks were...appealed
to the judge to get a DR: black, replace her with another
black, and the judge said he couldn't find one. And Frank said,
"Well, let me use your telephone a minute, I'll call A&M; I
think we can find one." Well, he didn't like that kind of...in
other words, that's an 'uppity nigger'. But Frank just didn't
mind being an 'uppity nigger'. And I guess that's why he's
a dead 'uppity nigger'. [laughter] That's why he's a dead
Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
45
'nigger'. But there's a picture out there where a group of us - it's in one of these - a group of us visited with the judge. It must be in this one. A group of black people visited with the judge, to ask him to appoint some blacks to serve as judges at the polls. See, we didn't have any black judges at the polls, and that was some of the work of the black committee, I bet. You can cut that off right here. It's in here - there's a picture of him - but that's not the picture I'm looking for...
CW: While you're looking, didn't you tell me that Frank ran for office several times?
DR: Yes. He ran for school board - the first black person to run for school board since Reconstruction days - and he carried the city. But there's a rural box up in the nor-thern part of the county, and we were told that just before the polls closed, somebody began to call up there and say, "If you don't want a 'nigger' on the school board, you'd better get to the polls." So, he was defeated at that box. He ran for city council and he lost. Another...we were told DR: - I cannot validate this - that a meeting was held to develop some strategy to keep him from winning, and the plan was devised...you get another black to run against him. And there was a black who ran against him, and they both lost, of course. And then he ran for county commissioner and forced into a run-off, and he lost the run-off. But here's the picture of black citizens. We had just come from meeting with the county judgeh, appealing Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
46
to him to appoint some black people to serve the polls, at least in the pre-dominately black precincts, so whatever... Every step of the way, we've had to fight for it, every step of the way.
CW: And this is the Anderson County Voter's Committee? 1970?
DR: That's right. That's right.
CW: Uh-huh.
DR: You see, Mr. Smith is on here...
CW: Uh-huh. I recognized him.
DR: ...and Rodney. Did you ever meet Rodney?
CW: No. No, I haven't.
DR: That's Rodney right there.
CW: Uh-huh.
DR: That is Rodney. It's something else.
CW: When you just said that you thought that it might be the lawsuit that was threatening about the water bills, is that something you see now in hindsight or did you think of that at the time?
DR: No, I figured that immediately. And Frank...I mean, because, after all, it had been - what? - a year or two since the other case was settled. And I figured that if they were going to kill him about that, they would have killed him, you know...
CW: Already, uh-huh.
DR: Yeah, so this was something new. I think they decided Mrs. Dorothy Robinson (Tape 2)
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that, well, you got by with that, but we're just not going to have any more of you. So, now that, again, is my inter-pretation. And, again, I'll stress the fact that I'm not very perceptive. Frank used to talk about finding out where the bodies are buried. I'm not good at finding out where the bodies are buried. I just look at the top and... And he'd say to me sometimes, "You look at the world through rose-colored glasses." He says, "But everything out there is not rosy." And he's right. But I'm just not a very perceptive person. I'm just not there, and there's not much I c