BEXAR COUNTY HISTORICAL COMMISSION
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Fenner Roth
INTERVIEWER: Brooke Allison
DATE: May 24, 1978
PLACE: Residence of Mr. Roth
A: Mr. Roth, would you start out by just giving an overview
of your life and the different jobs that you've had.
R: Well, I was born in Hidalgo, Texas, September 19, 1906.
Our family moved to Lufkin in September, 1922 in order that
I could attend High School. I finished High School in 1926
and for the next three years, I worked at odd jobs in order
to make money to go to school ... college. I entered San Marcos
... or rather Southwest State College in September of 1929 and
I finished in June of '33. During that time I met several
individuals that meant a lot to me in later life ... Lyndon
Johnson, who, as most people know, became President of the
united States; Willard was Interstate Commerce Commissioner
for some six or seven years; Walter Richter, who became a
state senator from Gonzalez, Texas; and Jesse Kellam, who was
a graduate of Southwest State College, was my coach in High
School and who was most instrumental in my attending college
at San Marcos. In fact, he was the one who made arrangements
with Coach Strand for me to get a scholarship to play baseball.
However, baseball was discontinued b~fore the spring session
and I went to work on the campus ... as a janitor in the Science
Laboratory.
ROTH
A: Did you always have that job? It was my understanding
that Johnson gave his friends that were the "white stars"
the inside jobs and gave the "black stars" ...
2
R: Well, Lyndon had nothing to do with giving jobs. He was ...
he worked in President Evan's office but ... well I don't really
know what his duties were; I think he was doing more politicking
for Mr. Evans than anything else. But really he had nothing
to do with the jobs themselves. After my first year there,
I did go to work in the auditor's office running the mimeo­graph
machine. And doing office work for the business manager
who was the brother of Jesse Kellam. In regard to the jobs
that you made reference to about Lyndon, those jobs were editors
of the Year Book, and the College Star ... and the business
manager of the Star and the College Star and those jobs were
awarded by the Student Council. Which we, the white stars,
did control after my first year in school . Those offices were
elected by the student body and they in turn gave the jobs
to the individuals. And they gave them to the ones we recommende~
since we elected them. During my college stay, I was President
of the Sophmore class one semester and I was President of the
Senior class my Senior year.
A: Did you ever work with Johnson in politics?
R: Yes, I worked with him when he was a Senior in college.
My first year, he managed the campaign of Welly Hopkins of
Gonzalez for State Senate. I was probably more of a messenger
than anything else. I did help Lyndon during that campaign.
A: Did you find him as persuasive as they say he was?
R: Yes, he was very persuasive. He never gave up til he got
his way.
ROTH 3
A: Tell me the amount of money you made in your jobs like
your janitorial work and the auditor's office.
R: The job paid $30.00 a month. But it was discounted 10%
because the state of Texas was broke and what we got was a
promise to pay and we in turn would sell this promise that we
would get each month ... we would sell it to the bank at at
10% discount, which left $27.00 a month. I made a little
additional money by taking up tickets at football games,
basketball games, refereeing basketball games, but that's all
the money I had the four years I went to school.
A: How far did that money go? Were you hungry sometimes?
R: Oh no. I got a room for five dollars a month; I got two
meals a day for $12.50 . .. 1 got by all right. I didn't have
a lot of money to throwaway on clothes or dates but ... I made
it.
A: Did a lot of the other students "throw it away"?
R: Well, I would say the majority of students didn't go four
years . They'd get a teaching job and . .. they'd drop out and
teach a year and come back for summer school. That's the reason
it took some of them ten, twelve, fifteen years to get a degree.
I went four straight years and stuck it out and got through.
A: What did you get a degree in?
R: Chemistry.
A: And what did you do after that?
R: I taught school for about two and a half years ... Hidalgo,
where I was born. My first year I was principal of the grammar
school. And taught history. They already had a chemistry
teacher. The next year he left and I got his job and principal
ROTH 4
of the High School. Coached basketball and baseball and taught
chemistry and physics, until December of '35 and I resigned to
go to work for the National Youth Administration.
A: How did you get the start with the National Youth Adminis­tration?
R: It was offered to me by Lyndon.
A: What was he doing?
R: He was State Director of the National Youth Administration.
He had just been appointed. I am not sure about the dates ... I
feel like it was somewhere between September and November this
agency had been created by Congress and Lyndon was made the
State Director by President Roosevelt. And he in turn had
hired Jesse Kellam as his assistant and Bill Deason as his
administrative assistant.
A: How did he know Jesse Kellam when he was your coach?
R: Jesse Kellam had gone to school at San Marcos and I'm not
sure whether he was there during the time Lyndon was there or
not but Jesse lived in San Marcos and his mother ran a girls'
boarding house for girls who attended the college. He also
had a brother named Claude . Both of them had been football
players. I'm sure Lyndon had met the Kellams through this
and also Lyndon was from Johnson City and the Kellams were
originally from Blanco and I think they may have gotten to
know each other before they ever went to San Marcos. A specu­lation,
I'm not positive.
A: Tell me about your NYA job. Where was it?
R: My first job was in Palestine, Texas. I believe the title
was field representative. I had several counties ... I don't
5
ROTH
remember how many. Later, they started combining districts
you might say and I was given the Marshall district and the
Tyler district and the Palestine and moved to Tyler. Field
representative for those three areas. I got married while I
was in Tyler; that was in October of 1936. In July or August
of 1937 I was transferred to San Antonio with the National
Youth Administration as liaison for the NYA with the WPA office.
And that job, in addition to being liaison which ... our accounting
was handled by the WPA ... Works Projects Administration. Mr.
Harry Drought was the regional director. In addition to the
liaison work ... that job also ... do all the buying for the National
Youth Administration ... as well as contacts with the Treasury
Department. I had to learn to write specifications for govern­ment
equipment. Purchase of government items. And to see
that all payrolls and checks were processed through the trea­sury
office which was at that time in San Antonio. It was
in the Smith Young Tower. We all had offices in that building.
That's just about all that was in that building. Except the
Fourth Army and us.
A: You'd mentioned something before about Eisenhower.
R: Well, he was Adjutant to General Kruger. Kruger was Com­mander
of the Fourth Army and they had headquarters in that
building.
A: What rank was he then?
R: I believe he was a Major.
A: This is, like in 1939?
R: It was about '36 or '37 ... before the War broke out. When
War broke out, as well as I remember, he was transferred to
ROTH 6
Fort Polk in Louisiana. Eisenhower moved him up to Lieutenant
General or something like that. In fact, he advanced very
rapidly. From there he was made Commander in Chief of the
Armies. I'm not absolutely certain how he moved up then.
But as I recall, he was Major when I first knew him. '36,
'37, somewhere back in there.
A: You said Eisenhower promoted him. You wouldn't mean that.
R: Roosevelt.
A: All right ... now, while you were in the NYA , Johnson had
become a Congressman.
R: Yes, I don't recall what year he ran.
A: '37
R: Was it '37? O.K. The Congressman from Austin had died
in office. There was quite a clamor as to whether his wife
was going to run for the office or not. And though Lyndon
wanted to run, he couldn't decide whether to announce or wait
and see if the former Congressman's wife was going to run.
He asked several of his friends and we convinced him he'd
better go ahead and announce and not try to find out what the
lady was going to do. Well, as it turned out, the Congressman's
campaign manager ... I can't recall his name. Buchannan was the
Congressman , wasn't he?
A: I think so.
R: Be sure about that before we use it.
A: I have it in my book.
R: I think it's Buchannan. But anyway, there were ten in
the race including Gerald Mann who was either Attorney General
or had been Attorney General for the State of Texas. And then
ROTH 7
Lyndon and eight others; Lyndon won the race. He got a plu­rality.
Because there was not a run off. Whoever got the
largest number of votes was the winner and he won the race.
A: You said that in '42 ... maybe it was part of it ... you went
to Austin as part of the NYA.
R: I was in San Antonio during that time and then in '40 ... it
was about '40 when I went to Austin. As Administrative Assis­tant
for the region. In the meantime, the NYA had done some
consolidating and they had combined New Mexico, Louisiana and
Texas into a region. Before that, each state had had an admin­istrator
and they were not regions . They cut it down to I
don't know how many regions. But that was one region. Kellam
was made the regional administrator.
A: Why were they cutting it down? Was it because the Depres­sion
was easing and jobs were available?
R: No, I think it was a more efficient program. Some of the
states were not as serious about the program or doing as good
a job as some of the other states and they combined them. And
I guess it was sort of an economic factor, too, because they
got rid of two state directors that way. And naturally, we did
get better and additional help that each state had had, by com­bining
and bringing them in. It would relieve the staff, the
administrative staff.
A: So were you in San Antonio when La Villita was completed?
Or was it just near completion?
R: I frankly don't remember. But I believe I was still here
when it was completed. I know that the Texas Library ... that
two story building?
ROTH 8
A: The Bolivar building?
R: Is that what the name of it is? That had been completed
and that was the last building that we worked on.
A: It had been completed?
R: Yes.
A: What was your subsequent job during the War? I know you
went out of the NYA.
R: I stayed with NYA until I guess October of '41 and then I
transferred to the Office of Price Administration ... back to
San Antonio. As assistant district manager, under Frank Cobert.
He had been a Buick dealer in Austin. He was appointed district
manager and he knew absolutely nothing about government work
or government organization though he had been a very successful
business man. Lyndon sent him to me according to Cobert, to
see if I wanted a transfer to this agency. Knowing that NYA
was on the way out; I knew it and Lyndon knew it and everybody
else knew it because there was no reason for it to continue
after the War got started.
A: What were some of the things done by the Price Administra­tion?
R: They rationed just about everything they could think of
except breathing. Gasoline, cheese, meat, stockings , you name
it, it was rationed. You had to have a ticket to buy practi­cally
anything. We also controlled rent; we tried to control
the price of all items; restaurants, foods, you name it.
A: Did you have any policing for black markets or anything
like that?
R: Yes , lots of them. Cartloads of them.
ROTH 9
A: What happened to offenders?
R: It was turned over to the Federal District Attorney. It
was up to them to prosecute. All we did was check and turn
it over to them. Not prosecute: make the final decision.
A: How long did your job l ast at the office of Price Adminis­tration?
R: I think I left in '45, right after Japan surrendered. In
October of '45. Because I realized that it was a most unpop­ular
program; there was no one liked OPA ... I don't care who
it was ... big business, little business. Everybody thought
it was fine for the other guy but not for them. Nobody wanted
to be rationed or be controlled or anything else . And it was
so unpopular and there was quite a clamor, (by that time Truman
had become President). And there was quite a clamor to do away
with OPA. Turn it back to business , big business, you know,
private enterprise.
A: Probably once the war was over, there wasn't that necessity,
either, maybe on prices.
R: There was on prices and frankly, in my opinion, it should
have been continued ... for another year or two because things
got completely out of hand just like they are now. But any­way,
they did away with it ... I don't remember how long after
I left. But then the Korean war came along and they put price
control back in. I didn't go back with them. This guy Allison
I was asking you about was made the District Manager. I believe
he was made District Manager at that time.
A: What did you do subsequent to the work in the Office of
Price Administration?
ROTH 10
R: You mean after OPA?
A: Yes .
R: I accepted a dealership from Frederich Refrigeration and
Chrysler air conditioning. South Texas. Corpus Christi was
headquarters. And for the next sixteen years, I was in partner­ship
with a man by the name of Horace Richards . We operated
under the name of Richards and Roth.
A: Specifically what did you do? Sell air conditioners?
R: We sold commercial r efrigeration; all equipment that went
into a supermarket as well as air conditioning. At that time
Frederich didn't make air conditioning. They made the meat
cases, the r each-in boxes, deep freezes, and pool tables, beer
boxes and walk-in coolers. They didn't make air conditioning
at that time . They went into that quite some time after we
became one of their dealers.
A: Sixteen years you were out of government service. Did you
ever do anything in local politics?
R: I managed a campaign or two for Lyndon. I was appointed a
director of the lower Nueces water supply district in Nueces
County which built the Dam.
A: Which campaigns did you manage for Johnson?
R: I managed the one when he ran against Coke Stevenson, when
he ran for the Senate.
A: That was in ' 48.
R: Yeah. Now I didn't manage it state wide; I managed it for
the 14th Congressional District.
encompassed about 21 counties.
I believe at that time it
A: How were you able to work and do this?
ROTH 11
R: I wasn't. I got permission from Frederich to manage Lyndon's
campaign. Rather, Lyndon got permission from them for me to
manage his campaign because Frederich were not politically
oriented. First said no that they wouldn't be willing for
me to do it. But Lyndon with his usual persuasive manner con­vinced
them that it was the thing to do. So Frederich called
me and told me to go ahead. Do whatever I wanted to.
A: Do you think someone like Mr. Frederich was going to vote
for Lyndon, also?
R: I don't think he was until that time. No, I would say he
was very much either Coke Stevenson or I've forgotten the man
from Houston ... there were three of them in the race. This man
was an oil man and I feel sure that Frederich was probably for
the other person because he was a Republican. And while I never
heard Frederich say, I always had the feeling he probably leaned
in that direction.
A: Did you ever come in contact with John Connally? He ...
R: Oh yes. John was in school when I first went to work for
NYA and after he finished at the University, he went to work for
the National Youth Administration in the state office in Austin.
While Lyndon was still the state director .
A: It was my understanding that he was the overall campaign
manager in '48.
R: Yes, that's right.
A: In fact I read that Lyndon flew around always in helicopters .
R: I guess he's the first person that ever campaigned that
way. He had to do something because he waited a long time to
ever get in the race. He let Coke Stevenson and this man whose
ROTH 12
name I cannot recall, from Houston, get in there. Which made
it doubly difficult not only to get people to help; but to get
money ... be known state-wide. Because Lyndon wasn't known
state-wide. NYA was not a well enough known organization that
he got the kind of publicity that the man on the street would
recognize his name. So he hit upon this idea, or someone did,
of campaigning in a helicopter. Which he did.
A: What were your responsibilities? Were you raising money
for him? Besides just being out persuading people?
R: Anything to get a vote.
A: Did the 14th Congressional District include Duval and Starr?
R: Yes, it went from New Braunfels to I believe Jim Hogg and
down to Edinburgh ... not it didn't go to Edinburgh, it went
to Falfurrias, Brooks county. And then across to Kingsville
and Corpus, Karnes County, and on up to Seguin and Comal.
A: Were you involved at all with the "Duke of Duval"?
R: Well, no, because ... I knew Mr. Parr real well; we were good
friends. But we had an understanding that he would handle
Duval, Jim Wells, and Jim Hogg counties and I would handle
the rest.
A: Now with all this publicity that Johnson landslide, the
stuffed ballot boxes ... this was just beyond .. . were you aware
of anything like this at the time?
R: Well, I knew what he was doing in his county(?) but I can't
tell you whether it was so or not. I wasn't there. This
happened in Jim Wells county.
A: Did you see Johnson, when he was in the Senate, much?
R: Yes, quite often. I never went to Washington but once or
ROTH 13
twice when he was in the Senate but I saw him quite often when
he came to Texas.
A: What was your feeling, when Johnson was put on the ticket
as Kennedy's vice president? Rather than getting the presidency
in his own right?
R: I thought he did the right thing. In fact, he had a big
barbecue at his ranch after he accepted the vice-presidency
and I personally told him I thought he did the right thing in
accepting. I knew he was disappointed. But I also, thought
he did the right thing in accepting as far as the party was
concerned. Frankly, and I don't think I'd want to put this in
the book, but I never did feel that Lyndon had a chance to
get the nomination. I really didn't. Because things just
weren't, in my opinion, were not going right. As it turned
out, he just didn't have the votes in the party .. a minority ...
just didn't have them.
A: That is what she is saying in that Doris Kahn book that
he wanted her, as a Harvard woman to be writing his biography
because the Northeast intellectuals just didn't like him.
R: Well, he spent more time trying to win them than he d i d
trying to get the job done, sometimes, I think.
A: Where were you at the time of Kennedy's assassination?
R: I was in Corpus Christi.
A: And then how much longer did you stay in Corpus?
R: Let's see. when was the assassination? 196 what?
A: 3
R: Well, I stayed there until about '6 6.
A: What made you leave Corpus?
ROTH l4
R: After Kennedy's assassination, I went to work for the
General Services Administration in Corpus Christi. While
working there, for Kennedy ... I've forgotten if it was before
the assassination or no, it was after he was assassinated,
I guess. I went to work anyway for General Services Adminis­tration
and worked there about a year. I was transferred
to Washington ... the District office up there, with the under­standing
I go up and try it for 90 days. I didn't like it.
I didn't like Washington. I don't know, there was just some-thing
about it. I was a country boy and it was too much. I
transferred back to Corpus Christi but in the meantime I'd
seen an announcement in the paper where they were creating
an Economic Development Administration. And I submitted an
application for a job with them. In the meantime, I'd trans­ferred
back to Corpus Christi and I guess it was about October
when I left Washington for Corpus. And I didn't hear anything
from them 'til about the middle of December. In fact I had
practically forgotten about it and assumed that nothing would
ever come of it. And they called me one day and told me I had
been appointed Deputy Director of EDA in Austin for 13 states.
A: Did you ever approach Johnson or any of the other people
on there ... ?
R: Not at that time.
A: Let's go back for a minute, explain to me what General
Services Administration was.
R: The General Services Administration is what you might call
the housekeeping agency of the Federal Government: They have
control of all the buildings and all the purchases of the
ROTH 15
Federal government. It was a commission that was set up on
the recommendation of Herbert Hoover, when Truman was President.
Before that, each a gency had their own purchasing agent ... like
we did for NYA ... and everyone running around, you know, and
there was no continuity, no specifications, for each agency.
And each agency would write their own. This combined the whole
thing and should have made a more proficient operation. And
I guess it did for a while. But it got so big; so cumbersome;
so much red tape, tha t I guess it's still efficient but it sure
does slow things down. It's just almost impossible for an
agency to move in and get space in a short period of time.
They have so many rules and regulations that it's almost pro­hibitive.
A: Would you go into what was the Economic Development Adminis­tration?
Was this one of Johnson's brain children?
R: It was under his administration. But I have an idea Hubert
Humphr ey probably came up with the idea . Now I could be mis­taken,
nobody's told me that, but it just sort of smirks of
Mr. Humphrey ... in every respect. It was a works program. And
it was to be by counties. No county could have over 100,000
population. And it had to be a certain percentage of people
who were on welfare ... in order for this county to be el i gible
for this aid. What it was .. . to build sewer systems; buildings,
and also to loan money at a low rate of interest in order that
small business people could go into business for themselves.
That part of it was never very successful. For some reason,
we couldn't get one approved. I don't know why. But the works
program worked out pretty good. Except for one or two states
ROTH 16
in our region, it kind of got out of bounds with Senators and
Congressmen pressure.
A: How long did you stay with the Economic Development Adminis­tration?
R: Three years. I left them in December of '68.
A: '68 ... in March of that year, Johnson had made a decision
not to run. Were you ever in communication with him on his
feelings about Viet Nam?
R: I visited the White House but he never discussed it and
I didn't bring it up. You know you don't bring up things like
that with the President of the United States no matter how
well you know him. No, we never discussed that. But I did
visit in the White House and saw him while he was President.
A: Were you doing this while you were up there in General
Services or just on a ...
R: One time, when I was with General Services and then when
I was with EDA ... of course I was with the government from that
time on so naturally I would be up there on government business.
If he knew I was there, he would usually invite me over there.
I never did pressure him or call him up and tell him I was in
town but somehow people in Washington have a way of letting the
President know what's going on. For example, I was in Washington
one time and he sent me word he wanted me to come to the White
House ... he was going to have a Press Conference the next day
and it would be at ten o'clock and he asked me to be there
about nine. The EDA was under the Department of Commerce and
I went over there about eight o'clock and everybody in the
Commerce Department was hunting me and when they located me,
ROTH 17
they said, "The President wants you at the White House imme­diately."
And I said, "Well, I'm not supposed to be there
until nine or nine-thirty." And they said, "you'd better
call and see." So I called over and they said the Press Con­ference
has been moved up. So I got over there and went to the
Press conference, which was very enlightening ... it really was.
Only one I ever attended. After it was over, he offered to
send me to the air port in the presidential limousine and I
said no I had some other people with me and I didn't want to
create any dissension or get some people offended. I was
higher than they were that were up there with me and so I would
just go on and catch the regular bus. Well, when I got to
the bus station, I had three calls. It was the hotel called
me: the President wanted me. It turned out they'd called
the hotel that morning at 8 o'clock and been hunting me all
over Washington trying to find me. So when the President wants
something, everybody in Washington drops the hat.
A: It was my understanding that he was terribly generous.
Small favors, he constantly wanted to do.
R: Yes.
A: You left the Economic Development Administration in '68,
the same time that Johnson was going out of office.
R: Just about. I had already made application to change
before that but the effective date was I believe December of
, 68.
A: Was there any reason that you were ... ?
R: Yeah, I kind of got ... well, frankly I wasn't sure EDA was
going to last after Lyndon went out, to be quite frank. But
ROTH 18
even had it, I wanted out because there was too much pressure
from certain Congressmen and Senators in certain states. It
made it almost impossible to operate the program. They harrassed
you to where it just wasn't possible to live with it as far
as I was concerned. Projects were approved that we had recom­mended
not be approved and it was strictly political pressure
from these individuals in certain states. So I started looking
around and first I heard about a vacancy in HEW in Dallas and
I went up and talked to them and it was that program that they
had in the cities ... I can't call the name of it now. Anyway,
I couldn't see that so I turned that down and then the Post
Office department called me from the regional office in Dallas
and I went and talked to them. I realized they were going to
reorganize that thing and there probably wouldn't be anybody
left so I turned that down. So I heard about a vacancy, by
chance, in Houston in the Social Security. And I put in an
application for that and got it .
A: Were all these by chance? It seems to me you kept a network
of friends in the government ... from the President on down.
R: Yeah, well you do. If you're successful. You don't just
know the head of the department ... I knew every clerk and every­body
else in those organizations I worked for. And I think,
if I was successful, that was part of it.
A: What job did you take?
R: I took District Manager of Social Security in Houston. Same
salary, same everything. It probably turned out to be the best,
I won't say the best, because the salary was the same, but
probably the most enjoyable job I ever had with the government.
ROTH 19
Liked it better than any except possibly NYA. Of course I
was young then and anything was better than teaching school.
Social Security is a wonderful organization. I don't care what
the public says. It's well run in spite of all the criticism
you hear. They're interested in people and I had never seen
anybody in Social Security be rude to a client or to a person
who came in asking for information.
A: Had Social Security made any mark on your own family when
it was first enacted? During the Depression?
R: Well, I don't know. I never worked under Social Security
until I went in business with Frederich.
A: My husband's parents are life-long Democrats. They hadn't
paid much money in but they were getting all this money. It
was just such a godsend to them.
R: I doubt if any of my people ever drew Social Security.
My daddy died before that; and my step-daddy ... I really don't
know. He couldn't have drawn very much because he didn't live
that long. I get very little out of Social Security because
the only thing I ever paid in was back in ... when I first started
with Frederich and what you paid in was so little that it
doesn't amount to very much.
A: What do you get from al l your government jobs? Is there
some kind of retirement benefit from them?
R: You get a good retirement from the government.
A: Does this go back to all the different ones? The NYA ...
R: Yeah, because you accrued time. With the NYA they didn't
make any deductions because it was not an old line Federal
Agency ... it was a new agency and it was under an Executive
ROTH 20
Order and they weren't eligible. But your time counted. And
if you wanted to, you could go back, what you should have,
which I did, and kept on my retirement.
A: When were you eligible to go back and pay?
R: When I went back to work.
A: Is this like the Social Security or even earlier ... the
General Services Administration.
R: Yeah, The Services, they deducted. The National Youth
Administration, the OPA, didn't. In fact we were working
under an executive order; we were not even considered regular
Civil Service employees. The time counted ... we got the same
leave and sick leave and so forth, but no deductions.
A: You retired last year. How long were you with Social
Security?
R: Eight years.
A: How do you feel about retirement now that the laws have
changed? Would you have stayed on?
R: Yeah. Sure would! I despise every minute since I retired.
A: Let's go on back and be more specific about the NYA. And
your impression of the Depression; how it affected you as a
young boy; your family; and ...
R: Well, of course I was in college and believe it or not,
I did not have a very hard time . I was making maybe 35, 40
dollars a month with my job at school and taking up tickets,
refereeing basketball games. I was doing all right. I really
didn't have a hard time; I had a good easy time compared to
most people. My parents had a rough, a real rough time. But
I didn't; or I didn't know it. I had a lot rougher time when
ROTH 21
I got out and started teaching school and was paid $85.00
a month, 9 months of the year. Had to discount that 10% because
the state was still issuing warrants, they were still broke.
A: Now at San Marcos and also teaching school, you were getting
Texas scrip or something like that?
R: Yeah. You might say for 6\ years , it was all Texas scrip.
Going to school and teaching took 6 years. First check I ever
got I didn't have to discount was when I went to work for NYA.
A: How much money were you making with NYA?
R: $150.00 a month
A: And how much were you making, teaching?
R: My last year, I made $135.00, less 10%, 9 months a year.
A: Nine months a year? And with NYA the year around?
R: 12 months a year.
A: Do you think that had anything to do with your joini ng
NYA?
R: It probably did. But I was teaching in a little town; and
while I like to teach school ... I like kids and I think they
like me ... the trustees were really the ones that tried to run
the school, rather than let the superintendent do it and to
a certain extent, I resented that. I'd have gotten out, I think.
A: Did any of your students, that you taught, later go into
NYA programs?
R: I can't tell you . I don't know of any that did.
A: What was your first job called, in NYA?
R: My title was NYA Representative. It was just running the
NYA program in that area.
ROTH 22
A: What do you mean by program?
R: We set up work projects for young people. We'd go into
schools where people were on relief and they had children in
school; they were entitled to so much a month; give them jobs.
We'd give the money to the schools and they would hire them
to do campus duty or clean up or worked at various projects.
A: Was it full time work?
R: No, it was part time work. Of course, the NYA, in the very
beginning, we were broke and we didn't know what we were supposed
to do. It was a program Aubrey Williams had set up; he and
Harry Hopkins had set it up to take care of young people who
didn't have jobs and were not in the "tree army" what they
called it at that time.
A: Conservation Corps?
R: Yes, the Conservation Corps. They only took care of the
boys. And we took care of the boys and the girls. And we
set up programs teaching them typing and shorthand, radio,
automobile mechanics, sheet metal work, shop work .
A: Where were they doing all this work?
R: We'd usually rent a building and get the equipment. Some­times
we had to buy it; sometimes a federal agency would give
it to us. Example: After I moved here, Camp Normal, it's
gone now ... but it was here in San Antonio. What it was was
a repair shop for all vechicles in the United States army; I
don't know what area it covered, but several states. And they
had all kinds of outmoded equipment. Drill presses, and drills
and things and lathes ... you name it ... woodwork and metal. And
they gave me a lot of that equipment and we'd ship it to differ-
ROTH 23
ent places and rent a building. Take these young people and
then teach them.
A: Were you always renting buildings? Did you ever approach
schools and churches?
R: No t churches, no. But, yeah, we approached schools but
they were not very conducive to anything like that. The schools
had not gotten around much to manual training and training
people for jobs. They still were teaching the 3 Rs in those
days.
A: You told me something about the Navy in Corpus ...
R: You see, when they first built that naval base down in
Corpus Christi all they had was a big barn and a commander and
probably a half dozen sailors. And they were going to repair
airplanes. And I went down and talked to him and talked him
in to giving us old equipment and stuff like that and then I
went before the City Council and talked them into sponsoring
a project and renting a building where we brought boys and
girls in. In fact we built dormitories in Corpus. And brought
boys and girls in and taught them. Airplane mechanics, radio,
TV.
A: Now when you were doing this in Corpus, was this out of
San Antonio?
R: Yeah.
A: What was your title in San Antonio?
R: District Director.
A: When did you come there?
R: In '37, somewhere around there. I was still working on
La Villita and all these projects at the same time. You see,
ROTH 24
when I was in San Antonio, I had the territory from Laredo,
Brownsville to Cuero under my supervision.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE I
ROTH 25
TAPE I, SIDE II
A: Alright, let's go on.
R: We trained many a boy and girl for projects such as ship
building, welding. And Brown and Root hired everyone that
we could train. Ship building at Orange, Galveston and Houston,
New Orleans. The Navy hired everyone we trained in Corpus
Christi to go to work out at the naval base, as civilians,
because civilians were the ones that did the repair work.
A: You mentioned something about Ft. Worth and it may not
have gotten on the tape . When you said we, was that just the
overall NYA?
R: Just involved the NYA, yes. This equipment that I got from
the army bases here in San Antonio was distributed allover
the state. It wasn't confined just to my district. We got
silverware, we got blankets, we got sheets; we got all kinds
of things from the army that helped us set these projects up
and get them started.
A: Were you traveling a great deal?
R: About 30,000 miles a year.
A: In your own car? Was that hard to come by ... a car?
R: What do you mean?
A: Well, I know after the war, it was next to impossible to
get a car .
R: I didn't travel much during the war. Before the war ... no,
you could get cars then. It was pretty hard on a car because
the roads weren't as good as they are now. It was hard on
the traveler, too.
A: I can imagine. No air conditioning. How fast were you
ROTH
driving, then?
R: I don't know. Probably as fast as it would go.
A: Would 50 miles an hour be acceptable then?
26
R: No, I think it was 60 in those days, was the speed limit.
Back in those days, when I lived here I had an agreement with
O.R. Mitchell. He'd sell me a new car every year for $300.00
and myoId car. That way I didn't have to repair it or do
anything to it.
A: Did you do your expenses on a per diem basis?
R: Yes.
A: Let's go into what was done in San Antonio and, more speci­fically
in La Villita.
R: In San Antonio we had a project at Hot Wells where we
trained radio mechanics and automobile mechanics for the Army ...
for the Signal Corps, rather. Of course, La Villita was not
a training project; it probably helped as much in the war
effort as much as it helped kids to have some money. And I
guess it did in a way because we had a sheet metal project and
a wood working project. But in the main, it was masonry work
and construction work in San Antonio and La Villita and at
Witte Museum and ... what's the golf course? .. Brackenridge Park.
A: You did the golf course at Brackenridge Park? In NYA?
R: We did some work out there. We built some bridges across
in creeks and the rivers out there. And I believe we did
some work in the Zoo. I'm almost sure we did. I know we did
quite a bit of work at Witte Museum.
A: You said you built the Reptile Garden?
R: Yes, the Reptile Garden. It seems there was another building
ROTH 27
we built there, too, but I'm not positive. But the main thing
in San Antonio, really, was La Villita.
A: Who initiated La Villita?
R: I assume Maury Maverick did. He was Congressman from
San Antonio at that time. Of course, he was well known by
Harry Hopkins, WPA, and Aubrey Williams, NYA, and Roosevelt;
because they always used Maury as a person who ... it seemed
if they wanted to try something new on the public, they'd
get Maury to make a speech on it. I think he got to make
a lot of speeches for Roosevelt just to find out the public
reaction. He was well thought of by the President. I have
an idea, and as far as I personally was concerned, the first
time I ever heard of La Villita, Maury was involved in it so
I'm assuming it was his idea.
A: Were he and Johnson friends before they were in Congress?
R: They belonged to the same party and as far as I know, they
had no misunderstandings. They were both New Dealers so I have
to assume they were friends.
A: Did you see a great deal of Maury? He was Mayor when ...
R: Yes, I saw lots of Maury. He was a wonderful guy.
A: Who else was greatly involved at La Villita? That you
saw or were with?
R: The first time I heard about it, Kellam, the State Director,
told me about it. And then after that, I met with Maury:
Floyd McGowen who was the assistant mayor, and then we hired
O'Neil Ford too .. in an advisory capacity as an architect. And
Arthur Bartell, an architect who was a graduate of Texas A and M.
ROTH 28
There might have been other people in San Antonio from the
Historical Society or something like that but if they entered
into it, they apparently talked with Maury. Those are the main
ones I had any contact with. Of course, Magruder, who worked
for the city, but he was doing what Maury asked him to.
A: Was this a unique program in the NYA, during the resto­ration
of La Villita?
R: Yes. I would say it was probably the only one in the
united States from the amount of attention it attracted .
A: There seemed to be alot of publicity in the papers on NYA
at the time. Did you have a lot of people coming through the
project?
R: Yeah, we had quite a few. We had the vice president of
the united States came down, Wallace; Mrs . Roosevelt came down;
Mrs. Bethune, Mary Bethune. Now Mrs. Bethune had been presi­dent
of a negro college for girls in Georgia and she was pro­bably
the first black to be appointed by Roosevelt in an advi­sory
capacity. And she came down to San Antonio. And then
from time to time we had other people: Aubrey Williams was
down; and Dave Williams was down; and then I can't remember the
name of the man who was in charge of construction in Washington
... he came down ... I don't recall his name. I had more visi­tors
from Washington during OPA than I did NYA and I think the
only reason they came to San Antonio was because they were on
their way to Mexico.
A: I thought maybe there was more criticism. In your other
projects, like Hot Wells, were people coming to look at that,
too? Or was La Villita more interesting?
ROTH 29
R: No, it was mostly La Villita. Oh , we had people go to
these training projects, people who were interested in hiring
trainees, you know, industry. But the average person out of
Washington, they didn't go to that. In fact, Texas had the
reputation of having the best training program in the entire
nation as far as the National Youth Administration was concerned.
We really had a good record.
A: Most of your projects: they were needy people.
R: They were all supposed to be needy people. They had to
be certified by the Texas Relief Commission.
A: My understanding, that mostly at La Villita there were
Mexicans but I would say there were plenty of needy Anglos.
R: I would say there were more Latins than there were Anglos.
But then we had Anglos ... quite a number of them. We made no
distinction as far as race was concerned. And it wasn't up
to us who was hired; it was up to the Welfare Department to
certify them to us.
A: Were there any girls hired there?
R: Yes .
A: How much money did the people make? Do you have any idea?
R: $15.00 for two weeks. They worked two weeks and off two
weeks.
A: And were they supposed to make $15.00 last ... that would be
a month wouldn't it?
R: Yes. That was 15 more than they had.
A: Were some of them educated? But needed at that time?
R: Well, I would say some of them had been through High School,
yes, some of the girls in particular.
ROTH 30
A: Did you have girls at La Villita?
R: Oh , yes. We had them doing weaving and copper work and
ceramics.
A: What did they do with all the ceramics, the weaving?
R: I don't know what became of the weaving but most of the
copper work we did is there at La Villita, or was. We made
lamps and things for decorations. The tiles that we made,
the ceramics, that we made we had some of the plaques made(?)
A: It's my understanding, except for the Bolivar Building,
that all of it was done by young men, that they didn't have to
bring in professionals.
R: We didn't bring any in on the Bolivar building, either.
Young men did that, too.
A: I thought maybe for the roof or something that was two
stories high.
R: I don't recall ... they might have put the roof on ... but
they laid the rock work and all that. We built the whole
thing. One of the biggest arguments we had between O'Neil
Ford and Maury whether it was going to be a one-story or two-story
building. Maury finally won by getting another story
on there.
A: Who was your ... some of the people in the NYA office in
San Antonio that worked with you but not specifically at La
Villita?
R: Upton Breeden was one and Charlie Barrett; Dorothy Muckleroy;
A: Did you tell me she was your secretary?
R: Yeah. She later went to Washington and worked for Lyndon.
There was a Bardwell boy, I can't recall his first name. He
ROTH 31
got killed during the war. Charlie ... Charlie Bardwell.
A: What was his job?
R: He really took my place after I started running all these
projects during the bind with the Treasury Department ... and
the NYA. Let's see, who else was there? Jim Perry ... was an
engineer;
A: Was he and NYA engineer?
R: Yes.
A: You t old me Maria Watson's father did something.
R: He didn't work here; he worked in McAllen. Bill Watson.
We didn't have a very big staff, really. Might have been one
or two more girls in there but that's about it.
A: Did you know some of the people in charge of the crafts,
like Mary Green?
R: Oh yes, Mary Green and Harding Black. I don't recall who
was in the woodwork shop and the metal shop.
R: I wish you would tell us the man in the woodwork shop.
R: There was a girl that graduated from Denton that was in
charge, too but I can never remember her name.
A: Helen Solburg?
R: Doesn't sound right. Mary probably will know.
A: I think that's the name. They hired her at Kelley after­wards.
Maybe you're thinking of her married name.
R: She married ... you asked me the other day ... he was construc­tion
foreman on that job ...
A: Was it Bland Einsteen(?) ... No that wasn't the name. I
think Mary had taught at Denton and had taught Helen Solburg.
R: Doesn't sound right. That might have been her married name.
ROTH 32
But that wasn't her name when she worked for us, I don't be­lieve.
But she married this guy that was construction fore­man
and then I heard they got divorced later on.
END OF INTERVIEW