BEXAR C()UNTY HIST()PICAL COM.'1ISSI()N
ORAL HISTORY PR()GRAM
INTERVIErv v!ITll : Nr . Jack Newman
Interviewer: Esther MacNillan
Date : September 12, 1979 .
Place : Nr. Newman ' s office at the San Antonio Light Publishina Company
JvT: Jack, the Flexar Countr:J Historical Commission nral History Program has
underr-1ay a Hemisfair project. The intent is to record for posteritr:J as
many persons as possible who played some part in San Antonio ' s Hemisfair
' 68 . I ' d like you to tell me r"hat ~<'aS your title and ~then you came on
the scene .
N: Esther, I arrived in 8an Antonio in March 1966 from Europe • •. Germany .
I caPle here at the invitation of .lim Gaines, r,.;ho was then vice president
and executive director of the Fair . At anr:J rate, Jim and I . • . I 'm not going
to bore you rdth the details . •. had known each other for twenty years ~<.rhen
I r..ras with NBC in New York. He t-.'as my boss at fvEAF in New York. He had
come to German!}, before he _joined J!emisFair , roJhen he ~;as runninq r·TOAI radio
and television, as a meml>er of Railio F'ree F:urope' s Crusade for Preei!orn.
The sister station of Radio Pree rurope r,,as _Radio Liberty . I ~1as the deputl]
director of Radio Liberty, rvith headquarters in Munich . And our mission,
of course, to broadcast to the Soviet l!nion . I hacl gone to a cocktail part']
that Radio Free Europe har7 had in the Rathouse in Munich . And there, after
many, man9 years I met Jim . Jim was an extraordinar!J person; perhaps the
Nr~.':flli'l 2.
mos t extrAordinarrl inforr>all•l et?ucater ,.,erson t'Jat I 'u~ri ever net in my
life. !Te har. never arar?lzated from !'i crh .cchool but yet he rear7 onniverously.
Phen I tool: hi'f"l to u.tJ o f""icc :~t n};en'eisenfel,.-7 T·lhic"'' hu.ppener to 'he on
the edge of t"Je olrJ air fieln r·'!Jere Cha'f"lberlain r>et .'!i tler in the !"ar~o us
"Peace in our tine " compact, anr in Far.t, this Tl'as the olil air[lOrt ter!1-
inal tvhere r··e r·.1ere operatinrr .
~f: T-That r·ras the nane o ~ tha t place?
.~!: 0herr·.reisenFeln.
M: You can see r.rhr1 I rvoulrn ' t knoT·' hor' to spell it!
N: Being a historrl bu FF, ~e f•'aS .t:asci nater'? vith t·!hat r told him of the
lore of that particular rerior. '·'e a l so took '!-JiM tn thP nkto'1erFe,c;t. At
t'Jis ti!1e :·re hac been sore thirteen •1cars al1ro ar7 And rre !"icmrer1 thAt r·Te
r·ranterJ to coJ7le h one .
J.im then _nroroser? t"'at r corne l>Ack to 8an l!ntonio ;qnr be =llli eil rl'ith
hil'l i n the 'hroo.r?castina. or>era t:ion T1f"rc . In the meAntime, r·T()JJ.I had been
sold. Jim, ~vho had had a very early role in the concept of JleT:Jisfair,
was asJ~cd, invi tel? , or persua.}e,l , by the Eoarr' of Tlircctors to bccoMP Fxe­cutiv
·e Director o~ !!enisfai1· , r·1hen r.ucn Dinc;_mal l, t·1l10 'Jac7 7•een the Executive
Director of the SeattlC' Fair, (!·.hich t·;as really the prototy11c of J!enisfair)
resi!Jnec anc~ le!'t .
. SulJserruently I receiveC. a telephone call !'rom Jin am? ca"~'e to .ru.n J',ntonio .
Came first on an explorator!l trip u.nr1 as happens in so rTJany cases, t/OU
r?evclo.rJ an afFection or l ove af'cair cor a place> an<7 this rrra.h;;Ac1 us .
!! : !!acl ~~ou ever J>een in C:an llnton. i o l:>eforc?
.'.': !lever .'J.ad been in .<:;an llntonio beFore . Never even knerv t·.'here it t·.:as .
I kneF it r-1as in Texas. Jim said he ncedec? an executive assistant. So
my job in 1 9GG t·.ras to be e:.;ecutive assistant to JiT:'. After just a .fC'I/1
nonths , it became very visil•le to hi 'I anr? I aucss to me that the experiences
NEf·'!fll.N ].
that I hac in dealincr Pith the P.l"'.~-assies in n!J previous role •·1it?: t!Je Depart·-
nent of the ltrny D.nc the Air Porco in both Europe an·i tvi th the TD.r rast
that t~ere should be somebody r,rho PAS responsi!.>l~"> for soliciting the for­ei']
n countries to partic.ipate in I!enisfair. .rc:n r,ri thin a fer.; months of T"'IJ
arrival , I t!as f.esignatcd nirector of International Relations .
:t: That's hot-r you got that ! In this article that tlOtl ~>'rote for Ean /lntonio
!·~agazine it calls you njrector o+" rxhibitor Visitor Relations . Did you
get that later?
ll: Yes . This is somethin~ that ~erlla_ns you're not a•-.rare of: In li.pril
or maybe l!ay, t:ithin one month or six tveeks after the Fair opened, .I in
Gaines resignec1 for the second tiT"'e . l!e han resicmer7 once beFore t-!hich
happened six !'lonths after I arri ver' in San lintonio because of a particul ar
encounter he had r·.ri th .c:cna tor Yarboroug!1 on an airplane . Jim resignee?.
I thought, ".'fy qooriness, here I've come 4,rJnn or s,nnf) niles to San Antonio
and the guy v1ho hrought ne here is r;one. " Fut r1arshall Steves, Paul Ho-v.rell
and Tom Frost and sone of the others asked if I would stal.J , r.;hich I did,
and continued in that role . llt that time , then, the r:xecutive !'ice Presi­dent
anc Secretary became Frank :•,1nrlpelli I r-lho !vas Jim r;aine , s de pUtT../.
The Roarc1 rer.1ained intact anc? ,Jim' s role tvas filled by Frank :•tanupelli.
ltnd then some nine months or a year, I 'm sorrrJ I don ' t have the precise til'le
frane, <7im r;aines v'aS asked to cone bacl:, r•rhich he riiri .
M: ·~o asked him?
u: It r·Jas on the recoT1JTlenrla tion of the Foarr?. T don ' t think f.lr. ZA.chr:J
was very please<1 r·rith this because l1r . 7A.c.~rtJ hA.s kind of a universal posi­tion
vis a vis the entire col'lr.1uni ty anc? l.,e h'AS An onponent of Jim ' s returning
to the Fair anr! as you ' 11 recall, .•rr . Zachrq >-'aS chairrnan of the Boaril,
Dill Sinkin tvas Vice Presi c7ent, vice chair!'lan of the Roarc7 and Harshall
Steves vras President of the Jlemisfair :Joard oF Directors. '·7hich rievelopec1
;JEW!llN A
since the very tiT'Ie, bacl: in the early days nrior to my arrival, solici tinr;I
the support of the state r;fOVernment . I 'm sure this is not apocryphal but
I think this is true; there t.•as a meeting anr-1 of course, John Connall q ,
who was governor of the state and Dill Sinl:in h'<lS not in the camp of ,John
Connally; Dill 8inkin ~vas a Liberal; John Connally r·,as a Conservative .
It beca1t1e very visible that Bill Sinkin ' s role as chairman of the Fair was
an untenable position in terms of netting state support . So in a closed
meeting , lfr. Zachry said in his ver>J direct, blun t t•Tay that as Far as Mr .
Sinkin vias concerned, "This JJog r·•on 't P'unt." So !Jill , a very reasonable
and practical person, in v i et" of the circunstances , vacated his role as
c 11airnan of the Board, 1->ecaT'Ie vice chairman and 'fr. 7.achry became chairman .
That ' s hov,r that happenec1 • NoT<? I think I have this basically straight .
But to get back to Gaines: Gaines t.ras hrought back to the Fair . I t
r·1as not a happy time. Climatically, t·re had more rain than vle had ever
had before; there t•Tere problems ahout meetin~ deadlines, certainly; but
on the other hu.nr'l there tvere expenr..itures that h'ere involved that exceeded
the budget and after the first 30 or 35 days of the Pair , attendance hegan
to slip a little bit and so Gaines once again retireri , resigned, or 11as
fired, as the circumstances ma') l:le. And '·1r. ?.achrrJ 1·ras, in effect, appointee
br; t!Je Doard to run the Fair . !fars'!lall .Steves still remained President;
but !fr . 7achr1) took over .
'1: I remember that .
N: Six or eight ~.reeks after the Fair starter? . ,c-:o then .'Jr. Z.:w'1ry, -v•l20
is a remarkable person T·lhen it comes to Tflanaaincr things, decirierl that this
Fair v.roul(1 l;e rut in the hands of . . . I ' ve forgotten .. . seven or eight Direc­tors
. At that time r·re naq have had as manr1 as eleven or tl·'elve Directors ...
staff Directors of the rair .
·~: T!1e book sar1s seven.
NEr"lMAN 5.
N: Mrs. Vickers is probably ri~ht. on a selection process, he selected
seven of us . Those people, as I recall, v1ere Jack Trawick, Bill Jackson,
Sam Godfrey, Irv Weinman, myself, and Prances Vickers , who t•Tas a netvcomer
(he had come down here from Austin to run the Convention Center) so he was
put in charge of the entertainment program of the on-grounds activities
for the public. At an y rate, t here tofere seven of us.
iit that time , in typical Zachry style , he said, "Gentlemen , I don't
know hot•! to run a F'air; you people do. fie will meet once a ~veek . At that
time tve will discuss problems that are extraor dinary , my door is al tvays
open and feel free to come. I will he available at any time .
He wrote us a memorandum; I 'll never forget that memorandum . It went
along these lines: "rve have a job to do . I know we can do it . If you
make a mistake, kick yourself in the fanny and go smiling into the next
problem. There is one thing I insist on . All of you are tvorking seven
days a week . Nobody can function under those circumstances . You tofi.ll
take one day of:f a week ." And >vhat he did was call our secretaries to
make sure tve took a day off. So for the first time in my life , I found
myself sneaking into the job . I had to hi de because vital things were
happening every day . There were national events; foreign events; occasions
that you just simply had to he there and there was no way that you could
take a day off. And you onl~ had six months t o do this dam Fair in so that
~ou realll) had to be there . Right? Once it was done , it t-.•as done . It
tl7as not a normal routine sort of a :function . At any rate, at this time
1-1hen 11r. Zachr!J introduced the re organization , he had asked us to . .. the
Directors at that time of whom there were more than seven .. . make recommen­dations
to him on how the thing should be re organi?.ed .
At this time , as I told you, I ~>las solely the Director of International
Relations, which function lfJas not onltJ to get coun t ries into the F'air but
during the course of the Fair , to ~tlorJ~ with them constantly on their pavi-
NEfi!MAN
lion problems , on their national days, on the receiving of their import­ant
visitors .. . their chief of state or whatever it amounted to.
I had made a proposal which would integrate under one department,
6 .
to be called Exhibitor- Relations, which would include procotol, the quides
and hostesses , special events, the commercial pavilions, such as the Gen­eral
Motors, the Fords , as well as the foreign pavilions so that all o.f
the activities relating to ceremonial activities , VIP relationships, di ­rect
communications with the Federal government, which r-.ras an exhibitor,
of course, (U . S . pavilion , the largest . ) They T•1ere exhihitors; they were
tenants, so to speak, on our property . All of those activites v1ere united
under one program .
At this point , I appointed Carlos Freymann in charge of international
relations to deal with the foreign pavilions; General .TJor r Newton 1-1as in
charge of protocol; Chuck Snyder was in charge of special events; Jim Taylor
was put in charge of the business pavilions . So r-.re had special events;
protocol; guides and hostess program; foreiqn pavilions and the commercial
pavilions . That all became one department .
f.! : Under you?
N: Yes, under Visitor-Exhibitor relations . All the Exhibitors and all
the visitors came under one uml>rella. So that was the way we operated
until the end of the fair .
M: It worked, did it? It worked well?
!1: Yes . It worked because they were logical components that had operated
independently so that if one person rvere in charge of all of these things,
it created the ability to make decisions, within whatever capabilities
t-Je had.
M: r'lhat I want to know is this: Did you personally go over to France and
get them in ; Germany; Switzerland?
NEf"lMAN 7 .
N: This is kind of an interesting thing . After the first couple of months
that .r had been in this joh as .rim ' s executive assistant, it became very
visihle to r.1e that r-1e r.-1ere solicitinq thP foreign countries in the vrrong
tvay within the til'le frame that r.re hail. r·Te had a man in Europe, Rill
Phillips, whose wife v1orked For the Bureau oF International r.xposi tions
and we ha(l Er,•en nin~all as consultant. nill was baseri in Paris and he
was responsihle, in effect, for soliciting the European contries for the
Fair.
M: r·Jas he employerl by Hemisfair?
N: lie was paid as a consultant by Hemisfair. As was DinlJ"'all . In fact
it v1as Bil l ann his ~viFe v1ho tvere basically responsihle for obtaining the
International Exhibition sanction For l!emisfair . It vTas not designated a.
r·TorlrJ ' s Fair nor was it ever riesignated .. . it !-!•as an international exposition.
f.!: I vTant to interrupt here: this Rill Phillips . .. tvhere did he come from?
r·!as he from . ..
N: Bill currently is with the Depart ment of Commerce . He had worken for
many years in Europe with the other rlorld ' s Pair, specifically Seattle .
And he and Dingvrall had become very closely allied during t hat time , when
Dingv1all was runnincr CenturzJ 21 . Ann they needed to get the IBE sanct.ion
so it v1as Bill 's wiFe anil Bill anti at that time the17 got together . rre
spoke French fluentlrJ .
l•J: I never heard of him. Ile isn ' t listed anlfwhere .
N: No , he isn ' t . Rut he had a role . Dut as I said , he is current.ll) vri t h
the Department of Commerce; tvas involver7 with the Pair at Seattle, etc .
f.lell, to get back to other elements of this . It occurreil to me that
what 1•.ras happening "'as not the '"all to qo . f'le "'ere sending delegations to
Mexico; r.;e were asking (;overnor Connally to go to South America with Carlos
Freymann; and Phillips vras working in Europe . It occurred to me that this
:n:r·nAN B.
rvas not the stratagem that shoul(1 he anplieil. •·.'hat you really needed to
do . .. ,:md this is vlhat I r:Ud: I l isted all of the countries in the r-.rorl c1
that I t hought night be orosnective canr!ir7ates to nartici pate in a P'orlr? ' s
Fair . Then I startec a process of elinination . I eliminated all those
countries that rvere having serious econorric or politi cal probl ens; I eli­minated
all the countries that wol!ld. have no real interest i n oarticinatincr
in a Fai r; I elimi nateil all t hose countries that hai1 never parti cipater1
in a Fair and lJOU rdl l recall this >vas a time r,•hen a lot of ner-1 countries
!Jere being horn. Then I rerfucec all those countri e s in the r·1orlil dor·m to
tJn . Then from that list of ."0, I put uhat .T fir;u r erl r..rere the real, l i ve
canriidates for the Fai r ann t"he ones that h'ere not so qooil . 7\nC. renuced
that list to 35 countries that r-roulil be open to solicitation . Nov.' .r kner·•
because, of my previous involvement r·•i th forei rm <1overnr.1ents, that ever:1
governnent has ilifferent structural ora ani zation.r.; that i n sorne instances,
the foreir_m o ffice r·•as the Final aTJprovin~ authori t y ror nar t.i c i •x1tion.
I n sone i nstances, it was the nenr:J.rtnent o.f Conmerce; in sone instances,
it r,ras the F'or eiqn Traile ani/ nusiness o f fice . Tn sone instances, it micrht
?e sonethinq else , see? So I r1inn ' t rcall') believe in thi s nT,iloso.nhn of
senilincr deleaations to the forei ern countries at the outset hecause, even
if t 71e11 T"'a'~e a favora'h] e ir1f.lre!.'!.c;ion on the people _in t 11e Foreian countr11,
ti'J.e'J man not :-.e tAll<inc- to tJ..e ri0.":t neonlp. And even iF they r-1ere tal king
to t he r i ght peopl e , that government v..•oulr7 senr7 a nessage back t o its aml;as­saclor
ancl sa~1, " ' 1er1, ;,rhat the hell is happening in ~an Antonio? .rs it
T·.'Or t h it for us to J:e involver7?" 'i'he Ambassat_7or Fould ask his Counc;el
";eneral ~rho would he involver•· i n this terrjtorial acti vity . So the first
t:ling t·le cli<l uas tn invite , out of thic; 3!'i potential, really solir. list,
t:1e .rnajori t 11 of Counsels General on a one to one hasis to ')An 7\ntonio,
."lEf·llJAN ()
where, t•1itl1 the help oF host rouples vho v.•ere involved rlirectl~l or inc!i­rectly
h'i til the Fair, vle parat?ed .<:an ,1ntonio he!:ore then. "elconed them;
all of tile stuff that turns penple on Fhen thct/ come to San 11n tonio .
/lt that tine we proviiled them rvit:, all the basic materials; vrhat it cost
etc . ; t:'e had a_noilel of the international area.; rrave ther:1 a little map and
told then h'h!J 1-le tho!lrrht the!l slwul n he there .
'!: You t·.rere that far aherul in tJour planning then?
I!: r·rell, ~·Je har7 to nove very rapidly . r·'e r·Tere bringing these people in
on a ver!l quick basis . The theory being that if they r.vere sold on the
Fair, and then their governnents rvere approacheil anc7 the governments then
t-Jent 'back and said what ilo you /:nor.-.: abou t the f'air: a, you !'.'ere making
the Counsels General and the Arr~bassadors look r;ood by being able to repltl
immediately: "f'Te knor·T all about this situation" rir;ht? J,ml the second
tlJing is that having been sold on the f'air, thell could say , hopefully they
l'!Oulc say , " >le think it is in the .best interests of our government to parti­cipate
in the f'air and it ' s an econom.ic, reasonable venture ."
So then after all o.f: the preliminaries things had 'heen made, I asked
Bill T'hil l ips to qo anrl call on these countries after thei r Counsels <,eneral
had been here . Those countries i n Europe, of course, t-1ere the natural ones;
the I tal ys , the Frances, the \.rea t Dr i tains, the Gernanys, the Denrrrarks,
the Sv1edens, the ilonvays, anc7 the ,c:paniards and the Portugals and Greeces
and even Tunisia and Algeria . r:o !Je !•tent on that venture and then ,. having
l i ved in the f'ar r.ast previously sor:te ten years, T kner,, that territory
very rvell, so I thought mat7!Je that c1rea should be mine . So I took off on
a trip. This tvas not a hit or miss trip hecause v1hat it involved Fas goinr;
to r.rashington, D. C. and r;etting the State Department, providing the State
Department with m~ proposed itinerary and getting State to advi se the eMbas­sies
all over the t-Jorlr7 once arra i n on t·Jhat f!emisfair t·1as all ahout: where
NEf•Tf!/lf! ]0.
it r·:a.s lncatei'.: v!hAt its detai.Is !-'Pre: hPnefits to the TTniter? States; Anr7
nf course, inclllr1.inCT the Fact t~at the Pniter' StAtes CTovernP.Jent +"t~lll) endorsed
it; that it hA11 I."''.F: anprnval; nnr' thnt it t·'ntllr? be most helnful i~ the1;
cou],.:r nive !'-'r . T·'hatever nssi stAnr:e thetT could . llnil in Ar7vAnce to
provir'le ne td th the loC1iCr1l cannir'IAte 1 the lonicnl nerson to tall': to ana to
set up the a.ppointr1erts for we on a sche,luler' basis. 7'1-JPn 1 in aclci tion to
that, td th the cooperation oF' Pan American, thetJ helper? to the extent that
the ~~hole trip t-1'aS or:ranizen . I had all this material rvith me anr'l: every
place alonn !'"''I route 1 T l•'as met hlJ !'an ;11T'?erican .: transported; theu mail0 the
hotel accomr:1oc'a tions ,· the11 assisten me tlJrourrh customs: and then I tv as
usual.t•J net hlJ 'Qnth Pan Anerican ann the .<=it ate nenartment . llut it took
a little fahric oF orC1ani zntion in order to "n t}-lis . So m') tar0'ets t·Tere
Japan I Korea I Nationalist rhina I !fOnCJ Kon(T I the Phillipines, Australia I
Ner-t Zealanrl, am1 'T'hai.Ianr' . nnt of that :rroup, ns a result oF this single
mission, v•e rmt rorea, t·rc :rot !Ta tionAlist Chinr~, rve rir'l nnt rret fTont;t Kon~!,
[•re had narticiDation b•J the Phillipines althonC1h theq 'fJafl comP?itteri 1·1hen
I tvas there not to he present • .• hllt ins tear? of a Full formal pavilion 1 theq
came up :•rith a Phil l ipine rtestnliTnnt v1hich is still currentlrJ on t1-Je C1rounds;
.l'lnstralia 1 .T vras surA r,ra.c; n shoo-in hecr1USe T:il r'lArk t·ras orrr a!'77.>assador
vho srrhsequentl~! hprA.r·>e the Commissioner of the F'eriern..I Pnv.ilion at FeP?is­f
air anil I rvas sure Tfe t·'Orzlri CTet Jl.ustral ia but Jlrrstralia r'l.inn 't: feel so
inr:liner': nei t her c7id .Vet<' 7en1Anr7; Thailand nirJ. So out of that tri .n tve qot
fo11r out of' thP. P . (follr Ani! n half.) incluilin:r the Phillir>ines, so thouah
r·.re rlid not (Tet Net•' 7ealanil 1 Australia 1 J!ong l~onn, forf'lallt], Fe riid have
" Fr>r Fastern coHntries out of the ei:rht Fe tmnt aFter . Jlnr .T think th.is
tvas dne to a C1Teat extent [111 virtlle oF the r>flvance r>lannincr ani/ also .h11
the assi.c;tn.nr:P. of the State ne.nartment and Pan llmerir:An 1 v1ho helper' us out
on this thin~ .
NEr•!r1AN 11 .
Ny tar(Tet r-ras .?5 . r-'e Fmr'len ur>, as I recall, ~ri th ,?o or J!l forMalll!
partici natincr cot•ntries in the Pair .
'1: You har1 Inilia .
N: r-..ro, r-1e rlidn ' t c:ret Intiia . Inriia ttTas a commercial. enterprise; a conces­sionaire
as far as the PAir was concerner7 •
nut all of this, interestincrl~ enough Esther, involven the anvance
commitment to the S[>ace that F0!1lr'l be rermirer in the J,nnn srruare foot
modules in what we caller'/ the International area oF the Pair . .cio nine or
ten months hefore I had the cornJni tments, r-re hail to r.alcula te the nur>bers
oF mo(1ules that needed to he J,uil t ann the amount oF F.Ioor space that rvou.Id
he occuriei! or forecast w.1>at each cmmtr•1 v'Olllil take . In other t-mr(ls, I
had to pull out oF the top oF 11111 head that 8pain r·:or1lr? surel~1 take 1?., non
square feet: I hail to sa17 thAt Prnnr.e 1-1oulr'l take ~>,nnn, that ,7apan t-rould
take r-. ,nnn anr'l so on . 'ilell , this r-ras not all auess t•.TOrk hecnuse r·re were
stn.•Jin:r constantly in touc'1 v1ith the rollnsels anr7 all those peor>le . You
knmr thel) couliln ' t cmnmit their crovernment.c;_: they ha"' to quess . llnr7 t-1or!li/
~1011 believe, 1''! a miracle, (oh, in ar1r7.i tion to these other countries r-.rhich
reallq hooster7 np onr J1articination, Fith the helJ> of Carlos Frem'1ann anr7
others in Fa.c;hinr;ton, r-;e (TOt the OJ!.. .c: to pn.rtici,nate as a unit that rvotlld
re)?resent the nraani ?.ation of Ar.7erican Stn.tes anr'f vre reallrJ J::.a r7 representa­tion
-FroM t1m Five Central JI!Tierican repuhlics that is Central l1.merica tor1cH!.
TI-re•! took one moilrlle J,nnn scrnare -Feet iointl11 as a unit . ) 8o tve coulri
hrar:_r aJ-Jout T'!ore C()lmtries if r.rc r.ranter? to .: J-Jut T•'e r'lidn't Feel it r·mulri
he fair to ar?vertise that . nut rvoulil riOII helieve that ever11 sinale moriule
rvns fill e <?; therA ~"ere nonP le:ft over: and everwme rvas occuoied btl a foreir;n
participant . It r.,as just a blooily miracle that it turner. o11t that r-ra17 .
M: lind you c!i .rl it in such a short tiMe.
N: '·7ell, in less then a 11ear anr'f a half . '!'hPn, considerin0 the r·rorlr'l
rJFf'll1liN 12.
situation h'llere a nat.ion r.olllr topple ... For exaPlrJle, t·re thoucyht that Tunisia
l•'as in For sure . :qut all of' a suri(len the pro.blems rieveloperi in North Africa
tvllich preventer'l them Fron heinrr involver? .
~! : Three oF !lOU cUr'! it .
!!: Yes, it t·ras a qoori staff. It acrain vtas a tribute to neople as I said
in that article . You ~et involved in something and realize that t;ou have
a deadline : the darn gates have to onen b~1 llpril 6 , 19f.8 anri tJOU hetter
have them there, right? r•.'ell , it was a little shake!] . F'or example, the
Thailand people arri veri one day before the Fair openec7 • Por tugal did not
arrive until a month aFter the Pair hari o_nenec?. Ilut thetl all ultir.zateltl
enr7ec!. up being there .
Defore I c:ro an!J further, I think reallt! a historic footnote at this
staqe that ' IOU T'li ght be interesterl in. necause T liver7 in Spain anr7 Portugal,
those t-'ere tTofO countries we T<Tanter! ver!l definitely in the Pair . This is
some .. , 110u better look at this nict ure ... tl1is is r·1al ter !·fcld lister an0 ne
in .11ailri0.. It sa1_7s Pehruarv, 1 'lFP , .Zl nril, the Pair is n,oing t o J"e open
ann they Fere not formallr1 co1'11!7itter7 . Sorreho2tJ nersuac?ed r-ralter ·~cAll istAr ...
no , I got r:Aine ' s support and everuborlt.r else, knm•'.ing Portucyal am7 .c::oain,
that these people !·•ould relate to the mat;or of C::an llntonio . necause he
t·las a venerable T'lan, he l1eld a ti ttllar role that v1as iT'lportant, ann T needer7
a high level salesnan, So he anr' I t·lent to Portnrral anr7 vre h'ent to .c::nai n.
I' .Il never forrret this l'ecause croina over on the a i r ,nl ane .T reneT'lher sarrinrr
to r·1al ter, 'Tou ' re a very outsnol=en gw1; on this trip-this is J~ini! of a
dinlonatic mission ... sn kinr? oF sit on it if 'JOU Feel lil-:e speakinrr out ."
lind he s aid, "You mean I can ' t say Fhat I want to? " lind I said, "I can 't
tell you that . ,:qut it night l.'e helpFul iF sometines 1.10u just helrl ~Jour
ton:;ue anr7 (!idn ' t sa!/ am1thina, . " r·7ell, he's rrreat and he laughed at this .
r • .ro go t to Portu(_!al anri vre were 11et lJ!l the :.tate .ne_nartment . There h'AS
NEr'IMAN 1 3 .
no press at the airport . It t·1as kind of a cool reception by the Portuguese.
r1re were entertained that evening by the Ambassador and his tvife and we got
tremendous interest from them . And they set up t he appointments; nothing
was happening as far as acknowledging our presence except a brief item
in a couple of the dailtJ ner.1spapers. Now this was s-till in the clays of
Salazar, who t-.ras the dictator ann very ill at that time . So we made our
rounds and really we weren 't getting very far. Nobody was committing -them­selves
. r1re ultimately wound up in the office of the Foreign Minister rvho
t-!as a very articulate man who spoke English very fluently and was a friend
of Senator ,John Totver' s . Tower had sent a letter in advance to sort of
help us out, introduce us, and that sort of thing. The conversation wasn't
scintillating up until this particular point and politically t he United
States had a problem rvi th Portugal because , diplomatically, the United
States was in effect in support of the rebels in Angola. vlell, our Ambass­ador
and of course , there t•Jas nothing that he could say that would be sup­portive
of Portugal which v1as a dictatorship •.. a rightest dictatorship.
So we just kind of ski rted around t;his issue and were speaking politely.
I think -the Foreign Minister t•las getting a little bit bored, when ~val ter
McAllister said 1 "Nr. Minister 1 excuse me _just a second, I have to say some­thing
to our Ambassador in front of you." lie said , "Mr. Ambassador 1 I am
not a representative of the city of San Antonio and t;he people of San Antonio.
I'm a citizen of the United States. I knov1 what your position has to be as
far as Ar.>.bassaclor is concerned but I can say what I 1-1ant to say and I want
to say something to the Foreign Hinister." And the Ambassador said 1 "r.Yell,
certainly ." So the Mayor said to the Foreign Minister of Portugal, "Mr.
Foreign Ninister, I don ' t care t·lhat the rest of the world thinks; I 've
been to Angola and I think your government is doincr one hell of a job .
Those people are better off than thetJ've ever been before. I think the
NEf~TJ·1AN 14.
rest of the •.-.rorld c ould v:ell be appreciative oF what the CJOvernment of
Portugal has done in a very backtvard llfri can country." r"ell , the Foreign
Minister smiled and vle no sooner got back to the hotel than the television
was there; the press t·Tas there; r.ve v!ere giving intervietvs. Oh, and the
Am"assador said, "I can tell you that Portugal v:ill participate in Hemis­fair
1968 . The Foreign Minister said so ."
You knov.r, I was so delighted. And sure enough , not only did they par­ticipate,
but they announcer'! publicly that ther7 were going to . Then, the
rest of the Ninisters, h'hen ther] got the lead from t he Poreign Minister
and the government, got so excited about this thing thet) entertainer'! us
and then tve got to talking about Saint llnthony de Padua, vlhich happens to
be the patron saint of Lisbon and the patron saint of 8an llntonio, TexAs .
So the Portuguese saicl , "Not onl ~1 are we going to participate, ~~·e are qoing
to send you a statr1e of Saint l1nthom1 ." lind that statue did arrive and
that statue v1as J'lountecl, as uou t·Jill recall, hy the little bridge on the
river extension where the new !1arriott hotel is rroinq to he . I don ' t knov1
vlhere it has been moved natv but if l./OU will recall, during the Fair, vJe had
a candlelight procession and each r1ear since rve ' ve had one .
M: Do you suppose they 've moved it?
N: I don ' t kno~o1 where it is. They hail to because of the ne~·' construction,
I 'm sure . But at am1 rate, we have to creilit r·.Talter ;VcJlllister tdth that.
!!: llein!'f outspoken.
:1: To an extent, the opposite hanpened v.rhen we arrived in srain. Pranco
was ill so we i!irin ' t get a chance to see him but f•lal ter diil an excellent
jol• . i·7e met with the .~fat~or of !~ailrid, he and I, vle hoth presented medal­lions
to the !1arJor of !!adric1 and h'e din meet t he Foreign Minister and things
!vent very well . But the curious thing tvas the Ambassador and his t'life were
at that time llnthony Biddle Duke . llnd politically you couldn't have found
NEf'7!1AN 15.
t•·TO people more separated than J!fcl\llister and the r>ukes. nut the1; enter­tained
us beautifully and because he ' s the kind of a c;uy he is rval ter ~1c­Jillister
himself, even though they i!idn ' t wrree politically, the!J just
adored h.im. They reall!J r'lii'; thet7 thought he "'as somethint;r else. They
came here to the openinr; of the Fair vThen he became rhie.F of Pr()tocol .
!1: Oh 1 ilid ther1?
.'1: f•'hen LB.J came 1 he tvas Chief' or Protocol .
M: JTave tJOU any ide a r·1ht1 Portugal cane 1 ate?
N: rvell 1 ther1 started late uou see; the!l har'ln ' t made up their minds. It
took r·ral ter !!cAl lister to tip them over.
llnd one of the fascinating thinas 1 Fas Franco,· he r·Tas 68 at that time
and Falter must have heen at that tine . .. he ' s nbout qn nor..r . . . so he must
have been 7P. or so1'1ethin~ , tvhen he r.-1ent .
As I said, our appointment ,,,as cancelled because Franco v1as ill ann
v1hen r·Je ca1'1e back and he reporteri on our trip to the Executive Com1'1i ttee 1
he said, "UnhappiltJ we di<7n't aet to see (;eneralissimo Franco. ll.pparentliJ ,
he ' s getting a litt.Ze old and frail." Somebody said, " Iro'Vl old is he?"
lind he said, " GR . "
1'1 : (laughina) f'1alter iloesn ' t paf! any attention to how old !Je is .
•'V : .'Jo, he roesn ' t knm,, hOk' ol il he is .
.'·1: 8i1'7pl !1 a1'1azing . Yo11 talkeil, in this article 'JOH vTrote for the San
Antonio mat;razine . . . I ' i! like that on the tape because it r.-ras such a nice
thinq !Jotz vrrote un about havinrr a harri ilau . . . and . . . can you rememrer v1hat
you said? Can IJOU tell somethinn about it briefly?
N: They wanted me to do a !'ieee on the lfJth Anniversary of the Fair. I
didn ' t tvant to do a statistical niece or an economic piece or how the ci t!l
had really benefited from it aFter all these times: or vrha t was involved
in economics or politics of the Fair. r·That reallu stimlllated the article
NEf•TNAN 16.
which is related to the importance of neople as far as the Pair was con­cerned,
was dramaticalll! hrouqht home to me ann r</as the crux of this arti­cle:
It ~"as a beautif ul Hemisfair eveninc; . As I said we not only TIJOrked
6 and 7 days a week but our days r?idn ' t end until la t er in the eveninq and
that was the best time of the nay; everythinCJ l.JOU coulil do had been done and
you t-.ranted to go out and savor this environment . And it hadn ' t been one
of the greatest datJS, in terms of problems . . . there were alT11ays problems.
I wandered out on the Fair qrounrl!:;; and reall!J it t>ras lovely; the lights
were sparkling, the ToT11er liCJhts t·.Tere a tiara in the sk!J; you could hear
the laughter and see people enjoying themselves, you could hear the music
from various plazas; you could smell the clean air. I t>1as _just standing
there; I had no bad~e, no special identification . I don ' t know if this
person thought t hat I had a tt>1itch or that I was nervous or whatever it
was he came up to me and said , "Pardon me, are you connected with the Fair?"
I suspected the rvorst . Somethin~ like he vras cheated or he didn ' t like the
food or he had lost his kid or something like that. But we had been con­ditioned;
you don ' t even have to be conditioned here in Texas . I think
after a time, even though you ' re not a native Texan, you kino of generate
a little human tvarmth. I answered, "r•Jhat can I do? Is anl.Jthinq wrong?"
I rvas taking the ne!'7ative vier-.r.
M: You were ready .
N: lind this quy said, "I just want to tell you, or somebody around here,
that this is best dam Fair I've ever been to. I have been to Montreal,
I have been to Ne~o1 York to J:>oth of their Pairs, 8eat1:le, but this one is
the best one I' ve ever been to . It ' s not the biggest, hut there is some­thing
al>out this place that reallt/ ~ets people. Pfaybe it ' s the people . "
So at that particular Moment, he took off; I said, "thank you . '!
M: That made your day.
NE¥1MAN 17.
N: So I said to myself, that guy really hit it . You can live through all
the picky criticism; you can live through the day to day disasters of rain
and the attendance not reaching what it 1•1as supposed to be , because it ' s
the people.
It wouldn ' t have been here if it weren't for the Jerome Harrises, for
the Henry B's; the Marshall Steves going out and getting all that under­writing;
the Tom Frosts; the Forrest Smiths; the president of the Alamo
National Bank, former chairman . If they hadn ' t gotten together and created
the joint banking arrangement; the pledges from the underwriters , if it
hadn ' t been for Sinkin compromising; if it hadn 't been for Jim Gaines; if
it hadn't been for Frank Manupelli who went in there under great stress,
under great difficulty, and Pat Zachry who, right in the middle of the
game, put his money 1·1here his mouth was and his time and everything else.
But dam, in addition to that, here were a whole lot of people. There tvere,
in effect, foreigners l ike myself who were new to San Antonio; there were
people t-tho lvere just so caught up in this i dea that despite what some of
the people in the press t.rere were saying • . • nay- sayers out in the community,
that "this thing l\1ill never happen; San Antonio can't do this ." The Vivian
Hamlins, the Allison Peerys , the O' Neil Fords, all of these people out
there t.rho just refused to let the dam thing die.
Now, in the midst of all this, we were coping t-ti th each other.
M: Lots of controversy . There's alt'lays that in any situation.
END OF SIDE I .
SIDE II.
N: The staff . .. I t-.rould say was an improbable group; for some curious reason,
I guess it was a miracle or something, we got good people .
M: ¥lhen you say s taff, v1ha t exactly do you mean by staff?
N: I'm talking about Jack Trawick , the comptroller; John Daniels, our
NErVMAN 18 .
counsel who was also our secretary; I 'm also talking about Carlos; I 'm
talking about Bill Jackson who ran the concessions operations; I 'm tal king
about Allison Peery who had t he architectural - construction role to fill;
I 'm talking about Irv Weinman; I'm talking about all of the directors of
the staff activities who had their counterparts on the Board of Directors .
For example: International Relations : my counterpart was Tom Frost
whom I certai nl y can ' t say enough about because when I was being pressured •..
"Why wasn ' t Tunisia signing? or rvhy wasn't . .• (you know) here we' ve only
got nine months and t-le ' ve only got f our or five contracts , etc . " Tom,
having the perspective, having lived in Mexico , having lived abroad , so
to speak , understood the situation . And when the heat came on me in the
Execut ive Corruni ttee meeting, he'd stand up in the meetinq and say, "Nmv
wait a minute . We ' re dealing with sovereign countries; we're dealing with
people ~vho do not move with lightening-like rapidity . If Jack says it's
going to work , believe me I think it ' s goinq to t·1ork. So get off his back."
He didn ' t say it in those words but t hat was the kind of support I got from
Tom Frost . The conflicts that there were were basically pol itical . As a
new-comer to the community, certainly I did not understand it all. In
the first place, one of the basic problems was that there was fear that
it would be identified with an establishment project . That there were not
enough of our Mexican-American community involved . That other than Alfredo
Vasquez and Dr . Jos~San Martin, there was nobody who represented the mino­rity
community on the Executive Committee . The money had been basicall y
raised out of the establishment and the Board o f Directors were surely the
movers and shakers . They weren't representative of the masses .
So Senator Yarborough and Charlie Grace, who was then county judge ... I
think he had just been defeated by Bruzzie Reeves, I'm not sure . .. but Grace
and Pete Torres and the others of that community ~11ere allied with Senator
NEv7l1AN 19.
Yarhorourgh, r.vho ha~l had a runnincr vendetta r.ri th John ConnallrJ forever .
So there tvas a lot of political infiahtina .
r·Thile all this h'as aoina on , the staFF was i11st :roing about its job
and hopina that it all r·muld work out . In terms oF conflict . .. as far as
operations rvere concerned, there t-lAS none . ror that , the person who deserves
a tremendous amount of credit for beina level - headed and unflappable was
Frank Manupelli, t·Jho throuahout this remained cool; ilidn 't c_ret excited:
kept people workinq tocrether . rris role rvas one I consider vastlq imnor­tant.
!1 : r•lhat !·laS his title?
N: He t.vas assistant to r;aines. r:aines had the joh and then For a time,
he had r:aines ' job ann reported to Stew~s and then when r:aines came back,
he rerorted once aqain to r:nines. Then ~<.rhen r:aines leFt again, he reported
to Zachrl) . Three months into the Pair, I think it l<'as , he left under 1-1hat
kind oE pressures I don't knmr. I think it became monetary; staff cllt backs
and one t hinq and another . So he went to t-rork for Par! Ellison .
f1: Oh , did he? When t~ras • . • ? I have a newsnaper cliopina ...
N: It tvas about l'ay, llpril, ,June of lf'I6R .
M: I have a clippinc_r here , dated 1967 . . . nctober 2n, and it says, "l!emis­fair
' s Nanupe.Il i said today he ' s de fini telr1 interested in the Ci tr1 Manaqer 's
_job being vacated hy Jack Sheller! . "
N: That was true . That r<'as t.;hen .Jerry Henckel became the Cit!J f1anager .
At that time, !1anupelli ' s name tvas beinlJ bandied about as a potential City
Manager . Jerr!l was assistant Ci tr1 r.tanaaer and so of course, the _joh was
up for grabs. i'fanupelli t-1as one of those consi ilerecl and he was mildly
interested but Jlenckel qot the job .
H: One of the thinqs I noted flown v'hen I 1.ras tryinq to c_ret as much mater­ial
as I could together, ~·,as mention of the fact, vlhich we knew when i•Te cane
over from Houston . . • that San Antonio had alt-.rarJs been knot-mas kinil oF a
NF:rvMAN 20 .
manana town. It hail relicrl on the tourists anri on the militar11 ana the11
did not 1-1ant development . 8ome1-1here it is stated that the pol-?ers-that- be
that t.o1ere gettin~ this Hemisfair toaether, ~>.reren ' t afFronted bq the ir1ea
because it r-vasn ' t goina to brini.J industr11 in; it r-1as going to bring sort
of an emphasis on the historical traditions and that sort of thinq so that
it wouldn ' t hurt the status quo .
N: That ma!J well be hut I think it was ... You see , Henry B. and Jerome
Harris disagree on who created the idea of Ilemis.fair . I'm sure Henry believes
he did; I'm sure Jerry Harris r,.;as the one r.-1ho fi rst suggested it . But
flenry B. in his role doesn't knot·! -v;here he gets his ideas: he may have
read them or created them in the middle of the night so he honestly felt
it was his idea . From his Congressional viewpoint, he thought of this
Fair in terms of it being of economic benefit for San nntonio . Saw it,
I think, as being a catalyst between our T>Olarization problem .. . the r·.rest
Side and the North Sicle . nnd he saw it, also, as part of his dream that
San Antonio 1-1ould be a bridge bet~.;een Latin America and the United States .
So there wer e many positive ideas . I rvould say that !lenry B .... it v1as
probably Ilenr!J B. plus the establishment reoTJle 'i'Tho also bouaht the idea.
They knew that something had to be done to project this city forward . r·Te
r-.rere somnolent; we t-Jere on the back burner; we were _just sitting there doin<;
no thin<; . And r•le -v;ere polarized . C•lal ter McAllister , I believe, and others
have said that one of the truly great benefits of Hemisfair 1968 was that
people who had never really communicated r-vi th each other before began to
do so .. . for the benefit of the city . I think that's its legac~1 .
M: In my conversation tvi th .Nr . Harris, he has a big Hemisfair file, he
gave the iriea of the name, etc. hut he said he did not have the clout to
get it ant]vlhere out of the idea area . So he said he har? to go to Washing­ton
on business; he dropped his ideas on Jlenry B.'s desk; he r-;ent off to
NEf1!1AN 21 .
New York; he tvas gone on a business t rip for six ~veeks , f'hen he got hack,
Henry Gonzalez had already been to San Antonio , talked to his pal Sinkin ,
and somebody else . (he has three staunch supporter s here according to
Hr . l!arris) And those men had picked up the ball .
N: Probably Zachry , Sinkin and possibly r:aines , because Gaines was an
important i nfluence at r~'OAI , radio and TV . Because he was doincr editorials
in those days . Gaine.c: was the only tvro-ti me president of the San Ant onio
Chamber of Commerce . lie was the one who realltJ was the impe tus behind
the creation of the Kel l y Access Road which is not·! known as General lludnell
Drive . Those were things Jim Gaines did as an important f i gure in the
community . But without the assistance, or the help, or the support of
the Zachrys and the Henr y B.'s and the rvalter McAllisters and the Tom Frosts ,
these things would not have happened for tile benefit of San Antonio .
H: Look t-1hat it did . It spat·med a v.'hole netv grmvth of this city. Look
at the river, dotvn town .
N : There isn ' t an undertvriter , and I can ' t give you the precise nul'lber,
but I would sat} anywhere from 2 ,000 to J,non people tvho put up the initial
6 . 5 million . They rvent to the second unden1ritinq and the third underwri t­ing.
Some of these people contrihuted maybe from 500 to 1,000; others,
20 ,000 to 50,000 to 100 ,000 b ut not a sinc;le one of those underwriters who
is around todal.J considers that a bad investl'lent . You can go and check with
anqone .
They think, though they lost a buck or two , that it t'las the single
best investment they ever made bec,ause: a. it got people working together;
b. it put San Ant onio on the map; c . nothing that is here today, or ver~
little of it, ~Mould have come at this time had it not been for Hemi sfair .
You know vle had the Year of the Blahs; tt·!O years of the Blahs , which
directly followed Ilemisfair . f'.'e'd been out all night to a Nev.r Year ' s party;
NEf•T,'.fl!N 22.
everyhody t¥as pooped out; the thin~ Fas over t·•i th and all these ~'''lS, these
marvelous people on the Boaril oF J'lin'!ctors ann the others r.-rho han worken ,
had to go ~ack to their jobs . The11 ' r? heen snenr7ina niaht ann ilay at the P.:::~.ir .
Not onl11 involveil t·Jith it . Ped f'cCombs is a factor in this ann TJoh .T?oth
is a Factor in thi s. Peonle r•1ho -iust took time out From their enterprises
to make sure the thina vrorked .
r·re]J, naturallt! For tt·'O or three 17ears after the fair, ther1 had to
make a livin~: the11 harl to recanturA the til"le the11 hail lost; a tJear , six
months , maybe tt-ro 11ears or loncrer . And the tines beaan to catch un t·Ji th
us; the 8un Belt syndrome . Jlnd f.o'e ro~eren ' t readlJ for it .
!1: f-Te sure VTerAn ' t .
N : lind that's why I said in '7f1, in that nacrazine article , at that tine
there Fere still neople t·'ho said "':'here'.c:; croincr to be no nof.'mtof.om net., hotels,
this c i ty v.•on't ]le revitAlized." ll.nd I saiil "To hell r·rith it. Tt t<'ill.
I can ' t tell 11ou specificallr7 r,,htl r11t I knor.-1 it ' s :roinr:; to barmen." Not
that I have am7 special vision or anr1thin:.r o.f that nature, hut rmn coulil
sense thinas.: rTOtl could see it !<'AS rroinrr tn hannen. c-o t·rhat /'>as .hapr)(=meil?
Is ha.npenin~? 11 17ear ani! a halF a.r:tPr that article t•.'e ' vc CTOt four ner-r hotels
huild_ir>rr anr'f a ci tr7 that is croinn to he al,le tn nush rirrht into the rutllre .
. nut it r•1as !Tel"lis.r:Air that r'/i il it.
"' · Sure. Vou r7on ' t J11ean A oeAr ann a !~al F?
~T: I t ' s 1°7°. It Fas ' 7<? I Frate this article, in 1\pril . n.!'., so it ' s
been eiahteen nonths a:ro, there t·TAS no nosi ti ve nlanned hotel. Notv t here
are Four!
"· Look at us! It ' s -iust l'?arvclous .
N: '!'herf:' is the •"arret and other !Jor·mtot·'n revelonment . Tverr1thina is
happeninrr.
-:r.
' ·
1hcn 11011 t-:ere in the T"iilst of this anr Forl-in:r so hArd, hut seeinrr it
NEWMAN 23 .
close up, did it ever cross uonr minn , "What are we aoinq to do tvi th this
l ovelq place after Hemisfair is over?" Did TJOU have any concrete i deas?
N: .r was fascinated t-Tith the concept of the Pueblo Espanol in Barcelona
Spain, which was the residue of Barcelona ' s Fair in 1928 . The 1028 world ' s
fair in Barcelona t-lh i ch was held on Mont ,Jrzich which is right i n the heart
of the city . Well , the Fair was held there . The one sin~l e remaining
positive evidence of that Fai r r<1as t he l ittle Spani s h town , Puebl o F.spanol .
This had ra t her an ingenious thought ; they had cons t ructed a villaqe , a
Spanish village , wi th a square, streets , and alleqs and houses and every­thing
and each one of these houses was a replica of a home of a famous
Spaniar d . No matter fl•hat period of tine he livea i n whether i t t-1as a Vela­sequez
Ihaiiez or whether it was a poet, or a oolitician or tvhatever. But
this Fhol e thincr was rebuil t. llnil fiFt y years l ater, it is still the most,
one of the l"los t vital parts of the cittJ of Rar cel ona , v.rhich is tvm million
pornzlntion. Stmi'i'l!IS it is filled. 1111 oF these hriililinqs house artisans;
therJ have people who produce relicrious materials oF one> kind or another;
there ' s alv1ays dancing; there ' s always music; and so on . lf!l vision oF _oost
Pair had been that that t·IOuld have heen a park tvith attractive .. . sort o f a
combination Central ParJ· , combination Puehlo rsnanol, and a semi Tivoli in
Copenhacren . NOT<' Tivoli took 2nn tTears to qo so when people tell me that
HemisFair is a ifeail duck . The hel l i t i s . PJeeif v.•ill c r ea t e what Hemisfai r
vofill eventuallq hecome . f'lhat has happened is that with these netM hotels
and revitalization of downtot<rn, Fhat those conventioneers and what those
visitors to this cit!) rvant t·1ill happen . That ' s vlhat ' s aoinCJ to happen .
So if not everr1thina that is nlanneil occurs as v1e woulr'f t·Jish it to . .. ani!
there ' s Another thina . .C:ome people r~re hung up on the i(7ea that T!el"lisfair
Plaza should he a revenue pronucinq center . f.•7ho sal.}s that the Hyr7e Pr~rk
in Enalanr'! has to be a revenue prod11cina thina? Valuable real estate;
flEf'T!·fliN 2 4 .
but it ' s a people [>lace . r.en t ral Park in Ne'.'! York is probably the most
valuable real estate in the '.'Torld hut it ' s a place r.-1here reople go .
San llntonio ' s Central Park , .C:an llntonio ' s Hyde Park, San Antonio ' s
big park should be Hemisfair Plaza . The fountains should be put back to
work , i t should be illuminaten , it shoulif he a place r·;here people couln
sit , !<.'here chil r:"ren conld plaq , or huu food , r;..rhere you coulri enjoy your­self.
Recause when these conventioneers and visitors come to to~tm, anr'l
the men are i n these meetinqs , the r;.Ji ves are going to t ake t he children
to the r iver, they ' re croing to go shopping, hopefnlly TTernisfair Plaza will
c;ravi tate tor·rard one of those economically viable centers as far as people
are concerner1 .
~1: Mr. Ilarris said that his idea , Fhich nohoc17 paid ant] attention to , !'Jas
to have it an ethnic place . Have the Germans take one of tlle historic
houses and sell fooif , ma rrhe have their music and things .
N: Let me tell you my greatest disappointMent. That ties in ~vith the
restanrant . The onlrJ reall~1 serious arc;rument I ever har7 wi t h llllison Peerr; .
Those buildings that were lmil t ror the International Pavilion had such
severe restrictions placed on them . . . and all theu r-1ere, reall~!, ~''ere r!ai ry
barns, the'} t-.'ere slantin~ rooEs , open fronts . Many of the countries r•ranteif
to nut their or.,n facaoes on these l>tlildinc;s to make theM into a Gernan
schl oss or a 8,nanish colonial ar7ohe or a Ja.TJanese Shinto shrine or r.-Jhat­ever
hut I coulr!n ' t r!o that because the architectural comJI'Ii ttee wouli! alloF
nothing to mer~e above the ceilincr line.
:11: T·lhy rvas that?
N: Heats the hell out of me . That ' s why I was still arquing rd th PeerrJ
about that .
Pf : You talk about Allison °eerl1 . r·.rasn ' t O' Neil Fori!, noone Powell , in
on that?
NF.fvMAN 25 .
N: They t<rere the original consul tin9' ar chitects but Allison Peery tvas the
staff architect .
M: T•Tho did the TOt-!er?
N: That was Boone Pov1ell . Darrah Lyda built it . It was Powell and Ford.
They resigned, of course .
~!: Getting back to those what we called tempor ary buildings , I understood
they were desi9'ned to be purely temporary . And that the only restrictions
~.rere that they must be fire proof .
N: That 's vThere the mistake was. You build a brick dairy ])arn, how the
hell can that be temporar y? I f you had put up a quonset hut, that t•tould
be different . My point was that those brick structures ... not-t when those
countries that invested in those things , putting in the floor, doing all
their or.rn interiors , they should have been allor,red to put in •.• to deal
with the front of that dam thing r-1hat they wanted to .
M: I'm terribly interested in this thing . You see , I office at the Institute
and I'm on Ilemisfair grounds a lot for lunch etc . f•!hat do you think about
a dovmtown University camrus?
N: It's limited; it has no area for growth .
f.1 : It doesn't get people down; just people going to school . But the present
plans nOt·t . .. they ' re taking in more and more buildings. Then of course,
there ' s the University of Mexico who has its University here and the Cul ­tural
Center . Then we ' ve got t he Federal Courts Building .
N: You ' ve got the Ilayes Production Company in the old Telephone building,
the whole I nternational area bordering on Alamo Street committed to UT8A
for Continuing Education. There isn ' t much space open left . David Straus,
for example, who deserves credit as a good solid Director , wants to see
those overhead walkways taken down . They really serve no practical pur­pose
. The!J were designed as people expressv1ays during the Pair so that
NEfVMAN 26 .
you could get from one end of the Fair to the other without having to elbow
your -v1ay through crot,tds . Now they are deteriorating; they don 't need to
exist .
The lagoon is a question mark . The chances are the best thino to i!o
is level the 'Vlhole thing; fill in c:mri place some artificial ponds or small
water areas just for fountains, or whatever, to brighten it up . rvhat we
really need to do is 'i!•ipe out that double level which doesn 't have any
reason for being at all .
H: Yes . It is so uglifying.
N: I don 't want to turn it into a parking lot . That's the one thing I
want to avoid above all thi ngs is for it to become asphalt . It ' s got to
be grass, trees, flowers and keep the old structures.
H: The present plan ..• I don't know -vthich number it is because ... it is
certainly one of many, is the .Bechtel, Larcade plan at the moment . That
is a combination of public and private investments.
N: Whatever happens is, the city of San Antonio, a governmental agency,
should not be running I!emisfair Plaza . It should he put into the hands
of free enterprise .
M: One of their proposals has been, in the face of all these hotels going
up, that there should he an inexpensive, low cost I'lotel sitting over there
facing I3o-vtie . ..
N: r'lhat they're talkinq about is taking the old Plaza Dinner Theater which
before that was the Abrazo Club and tvhich is structurally designed as a
parking structure and turn t hat into a l'lOtel .
N: For people vti th kids who can ' t afforri to pa~1 $50, $6() a day, that sounds
sensible . !1r . 7.achry, for one is very much against that idea .
N: I 'm not for it because I think that structure -v1ill eventually be, hope­_
fully , shops and houtiques or -v•hatever or remain parking. It ' s certainlr1
NEWMAN 27 .
less ugly t han a flat , asphalt parking lot. r•le need that kind of parking .
!1: Mr . Harris , in sort o .f reasoning out loud on his thoughts of after
Hemisfair ~..rere that: a convention comes into town; usually it ' s three days .
The first night they'll go on the river for dinner; the second night they1ll
probably go over to the market .•• El Nercai/o; the thi r d night , they don ' t
want to go back to the river ... he thinks it would be nice i f they coul d
go t o llemisfair and maybe have a Chinese meal or a Japanese meal or ...
N: They coul d do that anywhere in town . As these new hot els go up, with­in
two blocks surrounding evert; hotel new ann fresh things are going to
happen. There ~..rill be new restaur ants , there •.-~ill be new shopping , so the
center city itself r..ri ll become expanded as a consequence .
Jlf: And isn ' t this great!
N: Because excellence breeds excellence . Right?
M: Yes. So good.
N: Every old building and every crudi/y shop is going to be upgrai/ed .
It ' s just like ..• I sit there and watch t hat Dullnig building . . . r·rhere the
Beef Baron was . So here ' s !1cDonalil ' s coming; thel) 're not dumb . They ' re
not putting golden arches there . Theq 're 'V!Ood panelling, ceiling fanning
it; Baskins Robbins is going in; Ano so !JOU ' re getti ng r·1ha t Jerry is talking
abo ut what woulil ultimately end up on Hemisfair but it ' s going to be done
by private business tvhich says, ''f-!ey, this is not onl~J qooa business but
it ' s classy ." And this is what has to happen .
H: I heard the other day that they have conventions booked already to t he
year 2,000 in t he face of this hotelling .
·N: They knerv, the Marriott knew that they are 1n percent ahean of their
bookings predictions through 19Bn. So if they are 40 percent ahead, 1-1here
in the hell are the rest of the people going to go? So "'e need t he net·!
hot els . Center City i s going to t ake on its mvn character; -v1hat ' s happening
NEf'lf1AN 28 .
in Alamo lleights; ~vhat ' s happening in all the new livi ng communi ties out
there is good; the economic gravity , the livint;r gravity is centered toward
the northeast, north-v;est, but !Temisfair Plaza itself is (]Oing to be sur­rounded
}ly this . You knot-T 1 lean out of one of !1artha Bnchana.n ' s hotel win­dows
of the Plaza. Nacional and look down Alamo Street and my gorl , we have
an avenue! r-.re never had an avenue before. Now we've got a big city ave­nue;
very attractive.
r~: It sure is and it ' s ~oing to be l'lore so .
N: Looks s uper looking down to the left; over to the right there ' s not­hing
shabby about neethoven Hall; the opening to Hemisfair gets a little
tacky there but you get dot·m to the Convention Center . r•!ell all that gra­vity
is going to shift around to !7emisfair Plaza . I know it ' s (]Oing t o
happen .
!J : One beautifrzl plus is the Institute of Texan Cultures. That ' s flou­rishing
.
N: That's ... v.rell , my ~oil •. . it ' s not only a great thing but Fe have the
riqht person runninq it; we have the right f1eople involveri provic7inq this
i ntegral thread bet1-1een the present and the past. It's clone rd th taste .
It ' s j ust a little starter . One of these days there ' s going to have to
be more room for the Institute of Texan Cr!l tures . One of t hese days , if
,lack ttaguire ' s dreams come true, a John Connally idea, ~·1e ' re gainer to have
a Texas Hall of Fal'ie . rre ' re going to have the busts of great Texas heroes.:
we ' re going to be able to push a button anrl hear a little bit about them;
you ' re going to be able to bm1 books about them; And that ' s going to happen.
You can ' t do it til J.:Llm moves somet·.rhere else; they ' 11 probably rJove over
to whe1·e channel •1 is nov.' . . . llll of these things rlon ' t happen because of
a maste1· plan . AntJthing that exist occurs because a: i ts need . The more
action there is, the f'lore need there is and the J>eople tvho are involved
NErVMAN 29.
in creating the need are the neople who are in the right place at the right
time .
M: Success breeds success.
N: Of course . And in time, give us another ten years r-Ti th our young, vi tal,
energetic ne~v citizens . Give us the willing cooperation, participation
of our older families who have a respect for our traditions , our heritage,
and you thror'/ all these people together and I ~!ant to tell you that I just
don't have any doubt that San Antonio will be , not only one of the great
places to live, but a joy for other people to visit . And something A~eri­cans
are goi ng t o be proud of because there's no stopping it and all of
it goes right back to I!emisfair ' 68 .
N: It really does , doesn ' t it .
N : It really does. That ' s point zero for the development . ..
M: And all kinds of the people that you have mentioned did it.
l'1: People talk about it. And I don't know of a person tJTho ~,•as involved
in the Fair going around and taking credit for rvhat fvas done . Because we
all knotJ! that anything that was done couldn 't have been done rdthout terri­fic
staff people . But on the other side, a terrifically marvelous respon­sive
civilian community r-1ho got to helieving that t his could happen; were
proud of their city; who volunteered their time; ~ve could call them any
time. Well, take a Patsy and a Marshall Steves. We ' d get in a bind and
we'd need to entertain a visiting dignitary or something; we ' d call Patsy
on the phone and she had freezers loaded with stuff ani! first thing you
knew you tvere entertaininq in her home . This was happening in other homes
JJut Patsy and !1arshall J.mre extraordinarlJ. Not only that, they could push
buttons for us. If we ran out of high level local people, the five or
six who were executives of the Fair that were hosts for visiting dignitaries,
you could pick up the phone, they 'd drop ever~1thing and come right dmm.
N~~~AN 30.
Bill Sinkin was unbelievable: he ' d come there at the drop of the hat to
greet somebody; to make sure it worked. It was sensational.
M: There's one more thing I want to ask. I've been interested because I've
been close to advertising for so long, there ' s been an awful lot of cri­ticism
that the t4hole thing would have been a lot more successful had we
had more sophisticated advertising. Do you agree r-1itlJ that?
N: r.Yhat I ~r1ould say is this: and heaven help me for talking badly of the
dead, but Irv f;Teinman t.,ras over his head in that job . I think we were too
conscious of the press we got at home rather than making sure that people
within a 1, 000 sqaure miles area of San Antonio kner-1 where the Fair tvas
and what was happening. We started to do that later in the game but we
should have had it earlier.
You know tve didn't need to concentrate in getting on t he television
and in the newspapers in 8an Antonio •.. that was going to happen . rvhat t'le
needed to do 111as to embark on a very successful campaign that t•Jould have
solicited more people . But you see, that realllJ is not the problem. rve
came very close to the prediction o.f the Econol"lic llssociation forecast of
7.?. million people . We had 6.5 million , in spite of extraordinary rainy
April, Hay and ,June; in spite of the assassination of Robert Kennedy; the
assassination of Martin Luther King; and in spite of the fact, Walter Mc­Allister
would draw your attention to this, this tvas the period where center
cities tvere being ravaged by internal revolution, by conflict in the streets.
People were not leaving home. They were concerned about traveling, not
travel, but leaving their home . Because the Detroits, the Clevelands , and
Ner-1ark , Netv Jersy, and major cities in the United 8tates, r-Tatts
1
tvas happen­ing
at this time, so this l•las a period of social revolution 1-1hich put a
damper .•. Now, what I rvant to say is this: 96 acres can only hold so many
people. Curiously enough, when I look back, there ' s almost a magical for-
NRf.vJ:1AN 31 •
mula that prevailed . f.fontreal had a thousand acres; rve had a hundreil acres;
their 150,W)(} da!Js t</as our 45,ano da~;s ... give or take a fev1 thousand . Their
25o,nnn dn.ys was our 25,00(} daqs. In other wori!s take ten and multipltJ
i t ... right? Their biqqest day vtas something in the neighhorhooi! of close
to a million people; our biqqest datJ vTas 96, ann people. .But when you I]Ot
close to capacity in that increase, then the ,,,heels ber:rin to come off.
You couldn ' t empty the (_Jarbaqe; Deople got inpatient: they couldn ' t see
thinr;rs; you had to vtai t in line . So there is a point when every person
needs so much breathing, tvalking and air space . And t/OU defeat your r>urpose
tvhen you try to cram too many people in the phone booth is r.rhat i t realltT
al'lOunts to.
N: As far as I was concerned, the whole charm was because it was small .
N: The days you ever went to the Fair were when there were 35 or 4n,oon
people there. lfultiply the 168 days of the Fair and 4n,ono you mir;rht come
out all right . You come pretty close to your 7 .2 million .
!1 : There ' s another thing I want to ask you . 13eing an outsider on this,
I ' ve only heard gossip and things , I heard that the reason ninqwall vTas
f ired, or left, or something was because he di dn't get along with the locals
and I ' ve heard it said it was too IJad he left, he could have done so much
for publicity and that sort of thing . Is that true?
N: There's good and had in all situations . It is vertJ difficult for an
outsider to become attuned to the intracacies of the politics of this city
or any other city . I think that Dingt.rall, somehow or another, through his
fault or whatever, lost the confidence o _F the executive committee . As far
as they Tttere concerned , things vtere not going along the t-latJ they should .
And Dingwall, curiously enough, althour:;h a very able person, did not reflect
t'lell when he was on his feet and talking . He seemed to create an aura of
uncertainty or nervousness or t·•hatever although that tvas not true in one
on one or in a group or somethi ng like that. This was the question , ultimatelq,
NEflMAN 32 .
.• . you see, he had a different situation in Seattle. He had a basically
v1hite population ; he had basically a high income population; and the grounds
they operated on did not begin from scratch . They got the area; the plumb­ing
was in, they didn ' t need air conditioning , theq operated from what had
been basically an established foundation on which to build a Fair . San
Antonio had to go through the trauma of the Urban Renewal program, the
Press-about people being evicted, the emotion about t he old houses, the
trees . All of those kinds of things were foreign to Dinq~-rall. He just
simply did not understand why the movers and shakers couldn ' t just snap
their fingers . You knmv, we still live in a democratic society and you
have to get a majority on your side before you could get anything done.
So he didn ' t understand. So here v1e are, we sit geoqraphically, a Demo ­crat
state, but philosophical l y Republican . rve ' re conservative .
H: rle really are .
N: And that, he couldn ' t understand. An invisible fault line runs riglJt
dm·m through San Antonio- the South ends and the West begins . There's the
tradition of the South: the old families, the conservatives; then there's
a new kind of conservatives in the Western tradition which is clear eyed ,
blue eyed , shoot the son of a bitch if he steals my cow, just instant jus­tice,
all that kind of thing and then mixing into the midst of all this,
the t'fexican vii th the Spanish traditions , the revolutionary heritage and
everything else . Stir this all around and how the hell can you count
the politics out?
!1: I have never heard it said that tvay . That's great; I love it .
N: Well, don 't you think it ' s basically true?
H: Sure , it's marvelous .
N: f'ihy should anybody be sur prised at the Enrestes and the Ortizes and
so on . They are the direct descendants of the revolutionaries out of Nexico.
NEfvMAN 3 3 .
The social justice people . How can you fault them? On the other hand,
you ' ve got the cattle barons and the oil people: get off my land, you
son of a bitch or I'll shoot you . . • right? Then you ' ve got the establish­ment
with their pillared homes and their minuets and all the rest of it .
They want things to be nice and orderly and neat while the violins are
playing .
N: Of course , this is t-1hat makes this such a fascinating city .
N: But don't try to understand it on a day to day basis.
!1: But you haven't got this in Dallas or Houston .
N: No way . They haven ' t got anythi ng like this . That ' s why we ' ve got
so much going for us because t-le ' ve got so much going against us . Because
when you have challenges, you 're going to get better . Whenever everyt hing ' s
rolling in somebody ' s di r ecti on , it ' s bound to get bad because the whole
concept of a democracy is uncertainty . It ' s like walking on a tight rope :
you 're going this way once; and this way the other tvay to keep your feet
on the t•1ire .
N: You 've got to pay attention .
N: Or you ' ll fall on ~our face .
M: Oh , Jack , I thank you for giving so much time . It ' s a marvelous interviet-t.
END OF INTERVIE~·;r