THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Sadye Gee
DATE: December 20, 1993
PLACE: Dallas, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Gary Houston, Research Associate
TAPE I, Side 1
GH: This is Gary Houston sitting in the living room of Ms. Sadye Gee in Hamilton Park on Campanella Street, late in the afternoon on December 20, 1993. We are going to be talking about desegregation in Dallas, as she's witnessed it.
Ms. Gee, I wanted to first ask you something about your own background. Just where you were born and who your parents were, what they did, and so on?
SG: Well, first I should like to thank you and welcome you to my home.
GH: Thank you.
SG: I am a native of Dallas, Texas. My mother was a teacher, who taught many outstanding celebrities that have passed on now, such as J. L. Patton, Jim N...[inaudible] at Tuskegee, and many others. I'd hate to try to name them all.
GH: Joe N...was from Dallas?
SG: At that time, yes. And he went to Tuskegee.
GH: Then went on to Washington.
SG: And then Washington, yes. And my father was a self-made carpenter. He did not learn to read or write until I 2
was 12 years old, but...
GH: Where was this?
SG: Here in Dallas, Texas.
GH: What part of Dallas?
SG: In what we called North Dallas at the time, between the '20s and the '50s. And Daddy was a carpenter, and he made... he built houses from the ground up.
GH: What street was that?
SG: This was Watt Street, Watt Street between Thomas - the famous Thomas and State. He crafted many homes in Highland Park, and in some of the more affluent neighborhoods, and his buildings are still standing. I could show you some of his pictures.
GH: I want to look at those.
SG: Yes. And I attended the same school that my mother attended, which was the first Black school in Dallas which was called Bill [inaudible]...when I finished it. Then I returned and started teaching there.
GH: Really, what street was that on?
SG: That was on Cochran and Halt Street in North Dallas. As a matter of fact, North Dallas was the epitome of Black culture.
GH: It was the heart of...
SG: It was the heart of the entire city of Dallas, really. That's where everything happened.
GH: Everybody thought it was South Dallas. I mean, people who don't really know Dallas.2
SG: No, no. South Dallas came along a lot later. But North Dallas, what we call north Dallas, was surrounded, or bordered, from State, Washington, to Allen, to Ross Avenue, and in that general vicinity. It was also called Freeman Town.
GH: Yes, ma'am.
SG: Ok.
GH: Well, since you've touched on that. I want to find out more about your background, but I also want to come back and talk about North Dallas some more and what's happened to it since we're talking about changes. It's been through some major changes.
SG: Major changes.
GH: Even before we get to the subject of Huntleigh Park. Where did you go to college?
SG: I attended Prairie View College. And it has changed many times. At the time that I attended, it was Prairie View Normal and Industrial College, and by the time I finished it was Prairie View A&M College. And then after I got my B.S. there, I received my master's at North Texas State.
GH: Now, I know it's impolite for a gentleman to ask a lady these questions. Could you tell what year you were born and what year you graduated from college?
SG: Well, as a matter of fact, I'm proud to be, because they say that a woman who will tell her age will tell everything. But it just so happens that I think I reserve the right to SG: share this with you. I was born in 1921. I'm 72 years old, okay. And I lived in the house I was born in until I moved to Hamilton Park. 3
My father built the house.
GH: Did your father have his own firm?
SG: Firm. There was no firm. He just had two firm fists. And with that, his tools; I have some of the tools. My brother has shared the other tools.
GH: So he worked for general contractors?
SG: He was the contractor. And I did his specif...his specifications and his contracts, when I got old enough. Now he was one of the best mathematicians. Do you remember, I told you he could not read or write until I was around 12 years old? And mother was an adult education teacher for... under the Roosevelt administration and she had a WPA class. And he attended a class. Of course, he was a mathematician and could compute in his head what others can't use machines for now. And it's interesting because I would read my problems to him from the Stone Arithmetic book, and he would say, "Okay, okay, keep on reading Aha. The answer should be 74." And I'd turn, and that's right! But I could never explain how I got the answers because he did all the computation in his head. And, as I said, his buildings are still standing, and he's been dead now, oh, eight or ten years. He was 87 when he died.
GH: Yes, ma'am. So he was a successful, self-employed, carpenter.
SG: Absolutely! Yes. Of course, he'd have a bigger name now, you know, but in those days he was just a carpenter. GH: What do you think he might have done had he had more education himself?4
SG: I have no idea.
GH: What was his level of education?
SG: He was not...he was geared more towards business. And because of that, I think some of the...he was able to indoc-trinate his sons, not me, but his sons, my brothers. They both have their businesses, and one started his business when he was 18 years old. And the other brother, his son is the businessman. So it has filtered down through the generations. I speak of Alfred William Dupre, Sr., Alfred William Dupre, Jr., and Alfred William Dupre, III. And we call Alfred William Dupre, III, Trey. And he has an automotive business. I speak of Al Dupre as, hmm, he was just featured in the morning news last...in the guide for entertainment. Al Dupre, and he's a musician. And Judge Dupre, there's a street named for him in Dallas. He was a million-dollar man, sold a million dollars worth of houses out near Bishop College. And he has his own air conditioning and heating company, even though he is now a...well, the cancer is arrested right now, but he has been terminally ill.
GH: Now what is the relationship to...
SG: To my father? They're sons.
GH: These are, these are...
SG: My father's aspirations have been in the boys. Have I made my self clear?
GH: No, you've made...I'm trying to do some other things here. I'm sorry. The...what was your mother's name? Your father's name was...5
SG: My mother's name was Sadye Watson Dupre.
GH: Sadye Watson Dupre.
SG: Uh-huh.
GH: And her family was from what part of the state?
SG: Ah, we're all Texans and natives of Dallas and Gainesville. Mother was born in Gainesville. Daddy was born in Louisiana, but he came to Dallas at a very early age, like eighteen or nineteen. And mother was born in Gainesville, Texas.
GH: Yes, ma'am. Do you remember when her family moved to Dallas? Was there...
SG: Our family was already in Dallas, and...
GH: No, if she was born there...
SG: Wait! Mother was born in Gainesville.
GH: Aha.
SG: But the other part of the family - mother's mother was a nomad. She just went from place to place. And because her brother lived in Dallas, she oftimes came to Dallas.
GH: I see, so...
SG: And Grand Prairie, I guess, would be considered a metro-plex of Dallas. So she would go by way of Grand Prairie to SG: Dallas, to see her brother, who was a dentist. The first dentist in Dallas, Texas. And all around she just traveled...
GH: And what was his name?
SG: Oh, William C. Cooper, Dr. M. C. Cooper.
GH: Dr. M. C. Cooper. So she would have moved here, then, in ...in what year was she born, let me ask you that?6
SG: 1888.
GH: Okay, so she came here soon after that.
SG: Yes.
GH: Leave it at that.
SG: And her father was a Black cowboy from Oklahoma. His name was Will C. Watson. And, incidentally, that was her stepfather.
GH: Now is that any relationship to the folk artist Willard Watson?
SG: No. No relation. I should like to think so. I've talked with him concerning trying to make the connection, but I don't think there is. I talked with him just about a month and half ago, when his last picture appeared in the paper. And, incidentally, his wife died on that same day. The last seven of his seven wives. But, no, Watson - Willard Watson -is not related.
GH: One of the things that we're doing for this project is to examine just how Dallas was unique, as far as how desegre-gation ended up taking place here. Do you have any thoughts about how Dallas differed from Houston, or other parts of the GH: state?
SG: As I look back, I can have many thoughts about how Dallas differed. At the time I was growing up in...my chambered nautilus was just in the neighborhood of North Dallas. But as I look back, there were...oh, employment was different. I thought that Houston was superior to Dallas, and I still do. Employment-wise and occupational-wise. I think of Houston, because most of my schoolmates came from... 7
GH: I've heard...yes, ma'am.
SG: And their fathers were postmen, letter carriers, they were longshoremen, they owned their own businesses, they... The classmates of mine had checkbooks, and they could write their own money, you know. They were doctors' and lawyers' children, and it was rare to compare with Dallas and the offspring from Dallas. But at the time, as I said, when I was growing up, I felt that Dallas was superior to any place in the world.
GH: Yes, ma'am. Did most of your classmates become school teachers, as well?
SG: Ah.
GH: Classmates in Prairie View.
SG: Well, yes, I guess so, because that was...they were either...we only had two majors that we could aspire - medi-cal... I guess a few succeeded to become lawyers and doctors and teachers. I guess that led the totem pole because there weren't too many job offers for Blacks. I had, when I SG: graduated I had a chance to be a home economics teacher and the principal told me I looked too young. And the other principal told me if I wanted a job, I could have it, but I'd have to be a secretary. And so I chose the one where I could be the secretary, because teachers could not marry at that time that I applied for work.
GH: Why would they prevent...
SG: ...I mean female teachers.
GH: Did they...what was the reason for that?
SG: I have my...I would like not to say it on tape.8
GH: Oh, okay.
SG: But I've been... Even then, we would have had a good case for sexual harassment and whatever.
GH: Was there a movement in any...
SG: Oh, but definitely! There was a woman whose name was Tracy Rutherford, and she changed that policy.
GH: What year would that have been?
SG: We're talking about 1933. And the day that I married, the next day that ban was lifted, and I told my principal, "Hey, I have my degree." The war was going on, of course. And he said...and remember now, I'm the secretary. He said, "Call five substitute teachers." I said, "I will call four and I'll be the fifth." And he said, "Don't you know you're going to lose your job if the teacher returns?" And I said, "I'll take that chance." And I took that chance and it lasted 27 years. Because married women could now teach, but prior to SG: then...that's why my mother had to resign. She was a teacher, and I was her resignation because she'd married secretly and then I appeared.
GH: You were the...
SG: I was her resignation quickly.
GH: Resignation. How did she train to be a teacher.
SG: She attended Prairie View with...I'd like to show you her degrees.
GH: Oh, I...
SG: They are not degrees. They are real sheepskin. They're about this big, and she finished in 1908.9
GH: I'd like to see that.
SG: And she attended the Prairie View Normal and Industrial College; and then after all the children had gone to school she still wanted a degree. At the time that she finished, she attained the highest slot, but then she wanted a degree like everybody else. So she attended Wiley College, because we didn't want her to go to Prairie View, because students were kind of cruel to older people. But they were just precious to her at Wiley, and she was always an honor student. She was a real scholar, and just a little of it filtered down on us. But she studied German, Latin, and she was very proficient, excuse me, in her translations and everything. Did all of Shakespeare in Latin. And then was an honor student when she graduated from Wiley in 1946.
GH: Your parents were quite...
SG: Oh, yeah. I'm proud of them. Proud to have been their child.
GH: Now, you were mentioning that you thought your friends from Houston might have had more opportunities than existed in Dallas, once you saw what Houston was all about.
SG: Yes, and even Ft. Worth.
GH: Do you think that the presence of Texas Southern might have made a difference in what the Black community in Houston was like, as compared...
SG: Well, I'm speaking of prior to TSU.
GH: Even prior to that?10
SG: I'm speaking prior because, you see, it had not really been built when we were we were at Prairie View. And Austin was - even though it was smaller and everything - it was more academically inclined to be, in my impression, a better city for Blacks than Dallas.
GH: Why would that have been so?
SG: It might have been because it is a collegiate town, you know.
GH: Same thing is true of Ft. Worth?
SG: With Ft. Worth and also of Houston. Most of the...my classmates' parents attended Prairie View because it was so close to Houston.
GH: So Prairie View was sort of the the Black Houston area college before Texas Southern?
SG: Yes, oh, yes!
GH: It played that role before Texas Southern came along.
SG: Definitely!
GH: Did the advent of Bishop, the relocation of Bishop College to Dallas end up changing anything about the educational community here, since we're talking about colleges influencing the Black community?
SG: Yes, it certainly did. I wished it had stayed in Marshall. Again, politically...
GH: Its impact was negative?
SG: No, not really negative. But politically, I think, it was a political rather than an academic move.
GH: What was the reason for it?11
SG: I have not seen it written, and I would not like...I'd like to discuss it off the tape. It is my feeling that Bishop, having been located here in Dallas, was to create a facility for Blacks, to keep them from attending Southern Methodist University. And, therefore, it would have been better...this is what I have been...it is alleged that this is perhaps the reason for the change in location.
GH: So Bishop never really played a critical role in the life of the Black community here?
SG: No, I don't think so. It had great support, because of the alumnus, alumni; and they were proud to have it here in Dallas. But the real reason, as I have said, it is alleged that it was to keep the Black students from attending SMU.
GH: Who likely put up the money for Bishop for the...?
SG: The churches. I think mostly donors.
GH: Mostly Black churches?
SG: Mostly Black churches. And it was a political move that would bring in more money in the community, but I fail to really see the reason for really moving it from Marshall.
GH: Now when you were a school teacher here, did you teach in both a segregated setting - which I, of course, know you did - and you also taught in a desegregated setting, an integrated setting?
SG: I taught only in a desegregated - well, a segregated -because it was community, and it was all Black.
GH: So even after Brown versus...
SG: So even after the...that decision, it wasn't till the last 12
ten years of my tenure in the Dallas Independent School District that I taught in a desegregated atmosphere, and that was limited, very limited.
GH: Was it a different kind of experience?
SG: Oh, yeah. It was a different kind of assignment, a different kind of experience.
GH: How did how did it change, from your perspective as a teacher?
SG: Oh, well, I became a curriculum writer and a media specialist. And I had formed many friendships, Anglo friends, in north Texas.
GH: So you left the classroom after desegregation?
SG: Yes, for a while.
GH: You did go back, though?
SG: To the classroom? Yes, I did. Ross Perot donated a quarter of a million dollars or more to the D.I.S.District to develop a prototypic school, and I worked in that program.
GH: What school was that?
SG: That was the Paul L. Dunbar Learning Center.
GH: What part of town was that?
SG: That's South Dallas, on Metropolitan. And it was very... it was a very good experience. And the books that I wrote, by the time the program ended, they were obsolete. But it was all about developing media. It was before we had the computers. And everything that the computer...everything that we proposed for the program to do in the media section became obsolete because the 13
computer did it all. As librarian I wanted my children to know all about how to go into a library and find what they needed. Taught them the Dewey Decimal System of classification, how to use the card catalogue. And by the time that I retired, which was a few years after I worked in the prototypic school, there was no card catalogue. I asked, "Well, where is it?" "It's on the computer, ma'am." So I had to learn all over again.
GH: Did you see more money going into the...
SG: Into that program?
GH: ...into the historically Black schools after desegregation?
SG: Hmmm. Well, hmmm, yes. Because if you compare from the SG: time that I started teaching until I retired, yes. Because when I returned to the classroom from college, I went to the old library where I had attended as a child, Bill D...[inaudible] School, and found my books still on the shelves. Ah, and...
GH: Were your salaries in the Black schools comparable to those of...
SG: Oh, no!
GH: What was...
SG: Thelma Page, if you will remember. I don't know whether you've heard of her? Thelma Page Richardson served as the guinea pig, and we sued the Dallas Independent School District.
GH: Who was your lawyer?
SG: Wouldn't you know, I don't remember because I was just beginning. I should find that out. And she's still living.
GH: I'm just curious was the attorney...14
SG: It might have been. It might have been.
GH: Duram or...?
SG: It might have been Attorney Durham and Thurgood Marshall and Bunckley. It might have been.
GH: I was talking to Attorney Bedford about a some of...
SG: Oh, Attorney Bedford is one of my schoolmates and playmates.
GH: He's a great guy!
SG: Yes, he is. Yes, he is. We call him Brother Bedford.
GH: [inaudible]...
SG: Ah, well, anyway Thelma won the case on the condition if she had lost we would all pool our monies and see that she would have a salary for the rest of her life. As it was, she won the case.
GH: Was it a class action?
SG: Oh, yes! Definitely! And on that day, when school closed and I got my last paycheck - you know, we only got paid nine months in a year - I ran all the way home, did not have a car, because I had equal salary. A check with equal salary.
GH: What was the salary in a...?
SG: Made $60 a month. What you mean?
GH: That was...that was after the suit?
SG: But after the suit.
GH: That was before the suit, the $60, and then after the suit?
SG: After the suit we were paid our back pay plus our regular salary.
GH: Back pay for that year, or was this for all previous years?
SG: For that...no, well, that was my first year.15
GH: Oh, I see. But then the other teachers, did they receive for the previous years?
SG: Yes, they were compensated for the previous years.
GH: Good.
SG: We got more money that year than we'd ever had.
GH: And what were the other teachers - the white teachers - earning during those years when you were...
SG: I have a page in my book with the salaries. The top pay was for the White male. The next top pay was for the White female. The next was according to high school. High school teachers made more than elementary school teachers. And it's in the 1927 almanac, and I don't have...
GH: But there were a lot of discrepancies?
SG: There were wide discrepancies. Something like $200-$300 dollars per month.
GH: Wow!
SG: High school teachers made more than elementary. Males made more than females. And at the bottom of the totem pole was the Black female teacher.
GH: That's remarkable.
SG: Now see, about the desegregation, it's interesting, Because we had one Black supervisor in the schools, who took care of all the Black teachers. Her name was Jenny T. Brashear [?]. And in order for her to be able to do her staff training, we would have to go to meetings after school, and remain in this situation until around seven or eight o'clock at night or early in the morning. 16
But after integration, or whatever you want to call it, the White teachers refused to go to staff development and all of this that we had, so they started doing it by way of television. Made it much more SG: convenient, and the attitudes changed.
GH: We're to the end.
END OF TAPE I, Side 1
TAPE I, Side 2
GH: Okay, it's Tuesday the 21st of December. I'm in the home of Ms. Sadye Gee, and we're going to continue our conversa-tion, that we ended yesterday, after talking for a good bit of yesterday about her background and other things.
You were telling me about the public schools, and how teachers were compensated, as we were finishing up yesterday. I wonder if you can give me, and I don't think we talked about this yesterday, your impressions of what the classrooms were like, before desegregation, and how things changed after desegregation, in your impression?
SG: Well, frankly, I was very disappointed with the arrange-ments...oh, in the classroom after desegregation. The White teachers that came to the Black schools to work were inferior, because when I say inferior, I mean that they were inex-perienced. And they were young, and they were somewhat intimidated by being among the Black kids. And, consequently, their attitude was not genuine. It was obvious to see that they were not genuine.
GH: You mean genuine, in what sense then?
SG: For teaching. Period. 17
GH: That the interest of the kids was not something that they were concerned about?
SG: No, they were not concerned about the children; there-SG: fore, they put them either out in the hall, as a discipline measure, so they missed the class work. They used the television, not for teaching, but for just baby sitting. It was a total change in curriculum and everything. The teachers did prepare lesson plans, but they didn't follow through with it. It was just on paper only. And they didn't insist on the children producing quality work. I did come in contact with some teachers who were sincere, but a very few. And it was grievous to me, because while we were in staff development the only thing that they did was complain about the children won't do this and the children won't do this. They won't do that. And the ones that I was able to form some kind of...establish some kind of rapport I would tell them do not be afraid of the children. They are just as curious as you are. And they began to listen to some of the old, older experienced Black teachers. But they would only stay about a year and they would be on their way. And the interesting thing was that some of those that were sent to the Black schools, they became our superiors. Now I don't know if it was political or what, but it happened.
GH: And what was the response of the teachers to that...the Black teachers, to that?
SG: Well, it broke down the morale of the Black teacher. If they can get by with doing nothing, then we can too. 18
GH: So if it also...it affected the performanc, and the children ended up being the losers.
SG: Absolutely! And so, you see, two generations cannot read. We hear it every day. They finish high school, but they can't read.
GH: What I'm interested in knowing, from the statement you just made, is whether White teachers, in general, are less capable of teaching Black children. What are your feelings about that?
SG: I have mixed emotions about it. If you can recall, just before integration, the cry was, "Oh, I want my child to go to a White teacher. I want my child to go to a White teacher." They will get more experience and this kind of thing. But by the same token, yes, there were some teachers who would really be able to share, and impart good training for the students. But for the most part, as I have stated, the inexperienced teachers were generally sent to the Black schools for them perhaps to get experience, or have some place to work. The better teachers and the best teachers remained in the White schools.
GH: But does it also hold, from what you're saying, or can we also presume, that sending the Black students to those White schools is also not in their best interests?
SG: Now, you're talking about bussing, I assume.
GH: Bussing or desegregation...
SG: Well, you see, in order to carry out the decree, the mandate, they were sending the Black kids to the White schools. We'll say from the ghetto to the very ultra living SG: conditions in a 19
White neighborhood. And I have been against bussing from day one. And my reason for that is, you cannot grow a cactus in the swamp lands, because it's a dif- ferent atmosphere. And, I contend, even until this day, that they should remain in their home neighborhoods.
GH: You think standard American education is totally biased? Is that...
SG: Yes, I really do. But once they get the foundation of civics, which they removed from the schools... They removed art from the schools. They removed writing from the schools. The children are just...the curriculum is so water downed, so different, until, they are just bussed with no discipline. No, what am I trying to say? Ah, no home training; disrespect for one another. And it's just a cultural shock.
GH: So Black teachers assumed the responsibility for the students that they...
SG: We were; we were like a single parent as Black teachers. If the child needed...we gave them more than just reading, writing, and arithmetic. If they needed their hair combed, we combed it. If they needed a bath, we saw to it that they got it. If they needed clean clothes, we did that too. We even fed them, long before they had free lunches, and this kind of thing. We shared their...we shared their fears, their dreams, their... We were their parents. We were more than just a teacher.
GH: Do you think students today have more or less need for GH: that kind of...20
SG: They have more need for it now than ever before. We've always had single parents, but the single parents cooperated with the teachers. We had parental involvement that were... and the teacher lost her authority in the classroom. So the teachers can't...they don't have the same kind of authority to discipline the kids. The need is there, but having been... Well, the White teachers were afraid to spank the...well, they didn't have that privilege. And I don't believe in corporal punishment, but I do believe in discipline.
GH: That is true, that the students probably would get away with more?
SG: They can get away with more. And when you hear about a kid calling 911 on their parents, reporting child abuse for no reason at all; where is the authority? It is between police; and then the child drops out, falls through the cracks.
GH: But a White teacher teaching Black students probably doesn't know the culture...
SG: She doesn't. This is what I'm saying, the cultural shock was just too much. And they don't understand our culture. And staff development does not provide it, because those who are leading the staff, they are going according to the book that's been written by some psychologist. But you have to live it to know it.
GH: That's an amaz...that's an incredible statement, Ms. Gee. What you're really saying is that this whole business of GH: desegregation, which involves Black teachers teaching White students, as well as Black teachers teaching Black students, has 21
actually led to a great deal of dysfunction in our schools?
SG: That's right! That's exactly right! And the...in addition to that, the crime. We'll take my community here in Hamilton Park. We had excellent students, excellent children in the community. But as soon as integration came about, they were introduced to the designer clothes, they were introduced to the dope, and disobedience, and we saw a breakdown alto-gether.
GH: Do you think Black people, in general, became more materialistic as a result...
SG: Very materialistic! Absolutely! They had to have cars, not just any car, but it had to be a BMW, or whatever they are. And kids' materialistic attitude in clothing. Whoever heard of kids in seventh grade taking girls to a prom in a limousine, ready for the night, and spending the night at the hotels and all of this? It happens. And we lost sight of what the real goal should have been for education.
GH: Which of those goals went?
SG: An aspiration to finish school, to give back to the community some of the things that the community would need. But now we don't have that, just a few.
GH: Well, tell me, do you think that a Black teacher is capable of imparting to a White student the things that that GH: student needs.
SG: Oh, definitely! And let me tell you why! We have...I was about to say, you know for years the Black mammies in the family, oh, they had reared the children, and they are given credit for 22
having been the one that really taught them. They might not have had the most prestigious language, but they were able to give them the foundation for learning. And many times the children studied right in the house with the Black baby sitter, or whatever you want to call, but they called them mammies and things.
GH: So, teaching White children was nothing new for Black women?
SG: Nothing new! They assumed the role of the parent. And those who were fortunate enough to have Black mammies and baby sitters and this kind of thing, they give the Black mammie the credit for it now. But somehow, we had a breakdown in what the values were, and what the values should be for American living.
GH: When did that breakdown come?
SG: Around integration. Desegregation. I still blame it. I have a book that's called, Integration Is a Bitch! That's the name of the article, and I have many cartoons from that book. It's a book that starts out with a dummy sitting in the window, a Black dummy.
GH: I'd like to see that, the book.
SG: It is fantastic! It tells the story in pictures, and it SG: was done by an artist in Chicago. It shows first how integration was accepted, just tokenism, just tokenism. And to give you an example, here this Black is in the office with the rest of the Whites, just one - eating. Everybody's eating watermelon but him. And, of course, it reverses as he goes on. And the secretaries. The secretary is a secretary to a Black guy, and her dress is so short, he has to turn his head to keep from 23
being accused of any kind of sexual harassment. This kind of thing. It's a book that tells the story in pictures. It's very interesting.
GH: That whole business of...it's accurate to conclude from what you're saying that Black students seem to be the real victims of desegregation?
SG: Yes, I really feel that they got the short end. You will remember the "can't pass...you can't play if you don't pass"?
that Ross Perot came out with? I was happy to see that happen, because it looked like that the Black student was just focusing on sports. And I thought that that was a good point, because you have Black athletes finishing school and they have no skills, other than playing football or one of the games. And then they are injured, and then they are helpless finan-cially. And they don't have any credentials to support them. Yes, and the main thing that, it seems, that they wanted Black students for, was to make a winning team for the school. And education is not playing football.
GH: How, then, can we reform our schools to our whole GH: educational policy?
SG: It comes to my mind about an article that was written by Charles Greggs.
GH: How long ago was that?
SG: Well, that was in the...well, he started writing in 1921. And he was above his time to be sure. He was beyond his time. And the article that he has written on education could cer-tainly 24
be adopted at this late date, and education turned around.
GH: So he was a Dallas resident?
SG: Yes, he was.
GH: Was he a teacher in Dallas?
SG: He was not a teacher. He was self-employed. He was never employed by anybody but himself.
GH: He was an artist.
SG: He was an artist. He was a writer, and a very good writer. He wrote to the Dallas Morning News every day, and his pen was his weapon, and it was a very strong weapon. And one of the articles that he has written, this has stayed with me. Of course, many other articles that he has written have been very informative for my philosophy. It's really great! He was one of those unsung heroes. Never...I don't ever remember him being honored for any reason at all, but he was great.
GH: That's a tragedy. I hope to find even more about him.
SG: Well, I'll be happy to share what I have. His daughter SG: was instrumental in carrying on part of his philosophy, and her collection is very good. She shared it with me. As a matter of fact, she worked with me in producing "Black Presence in Dallas", and I regret that she passed before my show was on exhibition.
GH: Now where was that show on?
SG: It was at the...well, one was at the LTV Towers, downtown Dallas; and the other one was at the African-American Museum of Negro History. I used many of his publications, and his 25
presentations, because it was so timely, even though it was written back in the '20s, the '30s, the '40s. And he shared his knowledge by just saying, "Come here, little girl. Did you see my article today? Did you read it? Did you under-stand it? What do you think about it?" And he was a teacher on the street. And he had many admirers, and he had many people who envied him. But he was never honored or received the honor that you would expect a man of his caliber to have.
GH: And he lived his entire life in Dallas? He was born...
SG: And his children.
GH: ...here and his children...
SG: Yes, yes.
GH: Where was he educated?
SG: At Howard University in the '20s.
GH: And after that, did he go on to...
SG: [inaudible]...
GH: ...take a higher degree?
SG: No, I don't think so. I'm not sure about that. His collection, his art collection, was untold. The...oh, I can't think of the ones that he had. And I often wondered what has happened to the collection. And I might check with his son-in-law, who still lives. And his grandchildren no longer live in Dallas. But I have copies of most of the things that he wrote.
GH: I want to talk about this question of remedies a little bit more. Did the magnet school concept do anything to im-prove the quality of education? That was a response to deseg-regation 26
issues, as well.
SG: Well, what you still had was children being bussed in. It took the opposite - the White kids were bussed into the Black neighborhoods, and as soon as they got what they wanted, or fulfilled a quota, then they left anyway. I didn't see any advantage in it. I think that that was an early age to intro-duce the cultures. I think first you must understand where you came from before you go into something different. Cause you don't know where you're going, you don't know where you've been. And the Black child has been denied that, because they start them in, I think, the third grade and bus them out.
GH: [inaudible]...
SG: I think it's the third grade. So much has changed since I retired, you must understand.
GH: What year was that?
SG: I retired in '81. So it's been about almost 13 years. SG: And many changes have been made. But what I have observed is, the children leave their roots too soon to get a good foundation.
GH: Is it your feeling that Black students require more nurturing than White students?
SG: That's not necessarily true, but they are children who are deprived of their family unity. They've always been deprived, and I blame slavery for that. And so we're lucky if we find a father and a mother and a family unit where you can get the benefit of some of this culture that we are talking about. I had to pay to 27
be taught Black history. We called it Negro history in those days. Lester Patton wrote the curri-culum. But we had to pay to get Carter G. Wilson's book. We had a hard time getting curriculum into the schools, period. And there were just about twelve of us who took the course. So where does that leave us? Mention Mayor [inaudible]...at that particular time, they didn't know. You hear about Booker T. Washington and maybe George Washington Carver, and that's it. But there were many other role models that the child could be introduced to, day after day. Then we...here we are, we have one month of Black history, when it ought to be in the curriculum every day, especially for all students, but espe-cially the Black kids.
GH: How do you feel that the the integrated schools -desegregated schools - treat Black educational issues in general or Black historical issues in general? I know you're GH: saying that there isn't enough but, how would you describe the way they do treat it?
SG: I think they're striving to improve it. But one month, with a few pictures of George Washington Carver and Jesse Jackson and few others, that is not where it should begin. I think it should begin back there on the Nile River. And you can use it from a Biblical point of view, or you can use it from a literary point of view. And when you start there, then you know where the roots began.
GH: Have you taught Texas history from the Black perspective to Black students?28
SG: Have I taught it?
GH: Uh-huh.
SG: No, I was not a historian; but I was a librarian. And I enjoy helping the kids do the research. And you'd be sur-prised; Dallas has a dearth of history, right here where we have role models that could be followed. And we didn't have riots in Dallas. We didn't have, well, we just didn't have what most large cities had. We had respectability, we had cohesiveness. My first teacher actually was White. I had three teachers in kindergarten when I was three years old.
GH: It was a private school?
SG: Well, yes. Mother paid 50 cents a week for me to go to...
GH: What school was that?
SG: That was a kindergarten in the neighborhood. The C... SG: [inaudible] Center. It eventually became the YWCA.
GH: In North Dallas?
SG: In North Dallas. Fifty cents a week. But I was introduced to all of the classics in Brahms' lullabies and stories, and I still love them to this day. A.L. May's [?] works; and as I grew older, I just learned to love the books, so I became a librarian. I don't necessarily give...now, this was one White teacher that I'll give credit. She was inter-ested in the students. I had two others. One of the other two were Black; but all three were very, very good teachers. And I went a half day, and then I would go home and review it with my mother. And in those days most of the mothers were in the home.29
GH: Do you remember all of their names?
SG: Yes, Mrs. Tur..., oh, Mrs. McArdie was the White teacher, Mrs. Turner, and Mrs. Boswell. Mrs. Boswell, Mrs. Boswell was the, oh gosh, she had the penny saving bank. Her husband started it. And Mrs. Turner was just a church volunteer, and Ms. McArdie came from the Bethlehem Center in Alabama, I believe. And I think it was just her Christian duty to be a teacher, and she chose to work with us. And from that little school, we have doctors, lawyers, architects, city engineers all over the United States. Those of us who are still living.
GH: What you're also suggesting is that, that there was more of a sense of duty and...in an earlier era then there is today? That extends to teachers of both races.
SG: Right! Because now you take Ms. McArdie, she followed me all the way through college. Whenever I was on programs, she would be in the audience. She might have been the only White there, and I do not know anything about racism or anything. I didn't experience any kind of racism. I did not know that I was poor. As I told you earlier, that my little chambered nautilus was my world. And because of that, I have a different attitude about many things that others would disagree. Cause I've never known hunger, never known poverty, we've always had a home - the same home I was born in; we didn't have material things. I remember our first radio was a second-hand radio, but we had a radio. And we were perhaps the first on our street to receive, to have a radio. And we would turn it up and blast it so loudly that 30
everybody else could hear it in the neighborhood - that kind of thing. But we were not concerned about material things or peer pressure. We didn't have that; we all had one that we shared in the neighborhood - that kind of thing. Christmas, one present. Everybody had fruit. One present that was all. Something that you really wanted, and that was it.
GH: How did the role of the Black principal, I mean by, the headmaster of the school change after desegregation? I know that they played a very key role prior to desegregation.
SG: That's an interesting question, because the Black principals, for the most part, the ones that I knew about, and the ones that I had been told about, had more autonomy. They SG: were the ones that did the hiring, and the firing, and it was based on not what you knew, but who you knew, for the most part. And the others, some of the principals, used the teachers as pawns, and it goes on and on...
GH: How come you say some of the principals?
SG: I don't mean all of the principals because some...
GH: You mean the White principals or the Black principals?
SG: The Black principals. They had the authority to hire and fire.
GH: It sounds as if that would mean that the schools them-selves would have, maybe, a distinct personality or character of mission that was pursued. Is that true?
SG: Yes. Yes, I guess so.
GH: And does...well, no, I don't mean to lead you on if it's not 31
true.
SG: No. Well, I can truthfully say...because, you see, I was in only one school for 27 years and 16 principals changed positions. So I had 16 personalities to evaluate. So I really can't say.
GH: There's so much more to be said about the the schools, and I have a lot more questions. I know your time is short, and I'm imposing on it, but I, before we end, for today's session I really do want to know more about this Black Day at the State Fair. What was that like? How did people...
SG: Oh! It was the most exciting thing in the world at the time. Looking back, I have my reservations about it, but it SG: was a time when we only had one day for the high schools and one day for the elementary schools. And at that time, we would have these spectacular football games, usually played between Wiley and Prairie View. We would have a big parade. It wasn't downtown Dallas, but we'd have a parade. And then we had all the contests, like spelling contests, cooking, that kind of thing.
GH: Was the day always the same day of the week that...
SG: Well, it usually fell on Mondays, I believe. The first and second Mondays of each year. And...
GH: That is in October, of course, right?
SG: In October. Just one day each. And the elementary schools were out on one day, then the high schools and colleges, the next.
GH: Was that the day of the lightest attendance from Whites, so they decided to...
SG: Oh, they could come, but we couldn't go to theirs. Because 32
the rest of the time was spent with, you know.
GH: I'm just wondering whether that might have been a marketing device to build up the attendance if very few Whites would be coming on Monday anyhow. We'll let all of the Blacks in, we'll keep keep the statistics up and keep the cash flowing.
SG: Well, the cash would really flow on those particular Mondays, because most of the kids went to the midway anyway. And a lot of the lead shows and this kind of thing, they didn't even open.
GH: Like Juneteenth in October?
SG: That's a good way of saying. It was like Juneteenth in October. And most of the...the midway was the attractive thing. Ah, very few educational displays were even opened; That was it - the parade and the, a few of the contests and this kind of thing.
GH: There were beauty contests?
SG: Well, yes, a few beauty contests if you want to call it that. And I remember...
GH: Was there anything that was uniquely Black about the... that is, that Black folks did that Whites didn't do?
SG: Well, you see, I have no way of comparing because I never went to the White...
GH: So you never knew.
SG: I did, during the centennial year, have a chance to make a comparison, because every Thursday our students who were selected, served as guides. And, as I said, the major shows, and this kind of thing, like "Cat on..." - I forgot the name of it - "Cat on the Hot Tin Roof". 33
GH: You also mentioned that you worked at the centennial...
SG: As a guide.
GH: ...as a guide, and you were working with who?
SG: We had the opportunity, if you were an honor student, you were selected to go and work as a guide. And there were other jobs too, but I was selected to serve as a guide. And we had SG: a pass, and we could go to any of the food stands and get free food...
GH: So you were a guide around the...
SG: Around the whole...
GH: ...around the Negro, the Negro building or...
SG: No, all over the grounds. And we would answer questions for people who were lost, give them information of where to go, or if they needed information. And that was quite an honor.
GH: So you were there not just for Blacks, but for everybody?
SG: Everybody.
GH: So that was a form of integration, if you will.
SG: Yes, if you will.
END OF TAPE I, Side 234
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Sadye Gee - Tape II
DATE: December 21, 1993
PLACE: Dallas, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Gary Houston, Research Associate
TAPE II, Side 1
SG: Looked in his office.
GH: The office of who, now?
SG: Joshua Houston.
GH: Who was...
SG: Who was supposed to have been related to Sam Houston. He was one of the slave children who was born. And he was very elderly at the time; and what we did was keep account of the number of the people that came to the Fair. And keep a register and the activities. We had to report to him. He was our boss. And we were paid five dollars a day.
GH: What was he like?
SG: Oh, he was nice to work with.
GH: Was he a scholarly man?
SG: Ah, he was more like a womanizer.
GH: Oh! Okay! Excuse me; end of line of questioning! I don't want to...
SG: I would say so, because I was not the attractive kind of girl. It was...35
GH: You were 12 years old!
SG: Yes, and I was naive, and I just did what I was told to
SG: do.
GH: How old was this man?
SG: That was in 1936.
GH: I know, but how old was this man?
SG: He looked like he was 86! I'm not sure!
GH: He was...well, I'll have to take this off the tape. He was a rascal!
SG: Looking back, that's how I really...
GH: Well, we have lots more to talk about. And I'm going to go back to Dallas in a couple weeks, and I hope we'll be able to find some time, and maybe I can come at a time where - it's convenient...
SG: In the mornings would be much better.
GH: ...would be. Okay. Well, I'm done talking to the photographers now, so maybe next time I'll be able to...
SG: And then I know what you're expecting, and I'll perhaps have more information.
GH: Well, you've been wonderful! This is a photograph of you and Mickey Smith, with Mrs. Barefoot Sanders.
SG: Yes!
GH: What's the background of this?
SG: Oh...
GH: Let me first say I'm back again, same evening on December 21st, talking to Ms. Sadye Gee. Getting to know more about her 2
collection and her experiences.
SG: Now, this takes place in B. F. Durell School in 1964, SG: when in memory of President Kennedy...and Barefoot Sanders donated several books concerning Mr. Kennedy and about his life. And one of my students, Mickey, asked, "Sure enough, is that his name? Barefoot Sanders?" I don't know, but we will find out. So I called Mrs. Sanders and sure enough, his name is Barefoot Sanders. I think he had somewhat of an Indian origin. Okay, we were just one of the schools that received these books as a gift to our library. We were the only school in Dallas that sent her a thank-you note. And because we sent her a thank-you note, she wanted to see who this little girl was, the one that was inquisitive about her husband. And she didn't clear it with the superintendent, W. T. White. She didn't - Mrs. Sanders, I'm speaking of now - she didn't do anything but get Times Herald to come out and take our pictures. The principal flew into a rage!
GH: And this is...you said this is before real desegregation.
SG: Right!
GH: But this was late? I mean, this was '60...
SG: '64, just before.
GH: Now when did real desegregation happen?
SG: It really was about '65.
GH: When it...things really started to change?
SG: Uh-huh.
GH: Did they do it by grade?
SG: Grade by grade.3
GH: And the first grade was done what year?
SG: Those facts I'm going to have to put together.
GH: Well, that's not important now. Back to the picture, I'm sorry.
SG: But it frightened him so badly. He said, "Do we have permission to let the media into the schools and everything?" And, of course, she had priority over him, you see, because she's a politician's wife. And so, when he found out that she was determined to do it, the staff photographer came in and took our picture. And this was the beginning of Mickey's interest in books, and she autographed the book for us in our library and everything. Here we have our perception of the central expressway before it was actually constructed.
GH: This is the central expressway. Also began the demise of north Dallas.
SG: That's the beginning.
GH: It was the beginning of sort of the dislocation of that part of the Black community?
SG: That's absolutely true! That's very true!
GH: What year would that have been?
SG: This was 1947.
GH: Aha.
SG: This was Mike.
GH: So did you realize at the time that this was going...
SG: Yes.
GH: ...to change...4
SG: Yes, yes. I didn't realize it was going to be this SG: drastic, but I could see...I could feel the vibes, because the jack hammers were just tearing up the streets and everything. We could hardly have quiet.
GH: Literal vibes.
SG: Absolutely! But my students decided that they would do the community as they envisioned it, and so here it is. And I thought they did a good job for fifth graders.
GH: I think so also. I think an architect should call them.
SG: We went down to the city hall and got plans and so everything, so we created the central expressway before it was actually done.
GH: Well, tell me what you think about the the change that came to north Dallas, beginning around that time, after World War II when you saw your own neighborhood totally transformed to the one today. It literally does...
SG: Does not exist.
GH: ...does not exist. What did you think about that?
SG: Oh, it was grievous.
GH: Well, what happened?
SG: As a result of all of this change, we went to the four corners of the world, literally. And so many people were made homeless.
GH: Did they provide alternative housing?
SG: Oh, no! No, no! It was up to us to do that. And...
GH: Were people paid fair prices for their homes?5
SG: Well, somewhat. Not what the land is worth now. But my SG: parents, their first contract was $1,400. That was the price of our house. And at that time it was a little three... I don't remember that part, but it was a three-room house. Just a little shack. But because my father was carpenter, he built...he rebuilt it. And we ended up with eleven rooms, two story, with three baths, and 18-inch...I mean, 18-foot ceilings, beautiful hardwood floors. He built all the cabinets. Umm, it was to me, it wasn't a mansion, but it was comfortable. And when they tore it down, it was just like tearing my heart out. And when I pass there now, I just want to cry. Ah...
GH: It's almost as if we were refugees.
SG: We did not exist any longer. And all...
GH: Why couldn't there have been a movement to preserve that that neighborhood?
SG: Actually, it was done undercover. We would receive phone calls all the time. Southland is purchasing this land for City Place, what you see - that tall building. And they had salespersons to come out and say, "I'll give you X number of dollars." Well, when we realized anything Mrs. So-and-so, over here had sold - got $100,000 for her place.
GH: There wasn't a sense of...
SG: Unity. There was no unity.
GH: Did you get to the point of perhaps even making it a Black historic district? I mean, did anybody ever look into that?
SG: Not ever! Because it was done so quietly and so quickly, and 6
I think we were perhaps about the last persons to sell. I remember the day that attorney Judge Bedford's mother died. That was the day they tore her house down. And our house was about the last house to stand.
GH: So that really means that the literal heart has been cut out of Black Dallas.
SG: Yes! Yes, indeed! Ah, the salesperson would come and say, "I'll offer you so much and so much." Well, they continued to do it, and this particular fellow that came in to us said, "This is your last chance." We didn't realize how serious this could have been. Because at 2121 Clark Street the owners of that particular property refused all offers. So their house is standing alone over there, and nobody wants to buy it now. She can't sell it, and she can't give it away. So she has to make do. It makes me sick! Because, as a results of this sale, they came up with Bryan Place. The houses are so expensive over there. Judge Bedford's sister lives in one of the complexes. We had already moved out here, and we were going to rent our house, but not...yes, we did rent it for a while. And then my brothers and I decided we'd better go on and sell because everybody else is selling. We may be standing alone. So we sold. And that just breaks my heart.
GH: What do you think that kind of real estate speculation about, how it says how we as Black people...
SG: It gives us something to...to become more united. I think as a results of that, that is why Hamilton Park is more united, with an association to represent them and speak as one. Because we, in 7
1960, had a big buyout here.
GH: Now tell me about how Hamilton Park came to be. What year it actually began? This began after the the north Dallas ...
SG: Yes, that had much to do with it.
GH: ...change had begun?
SG: Yes, White Flight. You know, as we began to move into White neighborhoods that had been totally White and the Whites were moving out, we called it "White Flight". Every time a Black would move into one of these neighborhoods, their homes were bombed. Literally, bombed. They would burn them down. And this was going toward Park Row and South Boulevard.
GH: This is in what year?
SG: It must have been 1954.
GH: I'll...I'll stop.
SG: Love Field.
GH: The Love Field area, and you're saying Park Row and South Boulevard were two escape routes...
SG: Yes.
GH: ...provided?
SG: As I said, as they began to buy us out, over in north Dallas, on north Dallas...
GH: What happened when people moved into into Park Row and GH: South Boulevard?
SG: In that general area, their houses were bombed. They were set afire by night.
GH: That just so happens to now be a Black historic district, 8
isn't it?
SG: Yes, but at first it was where more pious Whites lived, but rich Jews lived up and down Park Row and South Boulevard. Well, having displaced us in north Dallas, we had no place to go. It was then that the Dallas Black Chamber of Commerce began to look to see if they could find a possible location to relocate the Blacks. It just so happened that they first took us to look at something near the Trinity River bottom. I mean, the Trinity River bottom. And that was not amenable to the members of the Black Chamber of Commerce. And then they remembered that, "Hey, Old White Rock is out there." We want H...[inaudible]...isolated from everything.
GH: Now this goes...this neighborhood around Huntleigh Park was a Black community?
SG: It was Freedman's Town.
GH: Long way back in the eighteenth century?
SG: Yes.
GH: Nineteenth century.
SG: Yes, the 1800's. And the Blacks that received this land, as freed slaves, they kept their land, and they were able to sell it for a nice price.
GH: What happened to the land after Freedman's Town met its GH: met its demise? Was there, before people started moving out of Dallas, what was happening out here? Say, during the period around World War II.
SG: World War II, it was still cotton fields. It was cotton 9
fields.
GH: But there weren't a lot of Blacks still here, or were there?
SG: Well, there were several families here, but those were the ones who actually acquired the land, and they were descendants of slaves. And we're talking about 1954. And- yes, we're talking about 1954. But in 1984 some developers ...not developers, well, real estate [inaudible], I'll call them, decided that we were going to buy this neighborhood out.
GH: Now this is...there had been a precedent for this sort of thing. In fact, right, because didn't EDS, Ross Perot, buy out some of the Black families?
SG: No, he bought the Anderson farm - Anderson farm out here off Forest Lane. But they did not live there then. They had already sold to St. John Baptist Church for a recreation park. And he bought that land from the church.
GH: You told me there were several Black...
SG: ...Families.
GH: ...families and Black pockets in this far north Dallas, now the LBJ, Valley View...
SG: Uh-huh. Galleria, North Park Shopping Center. All of that. Abel's was owned by Blacks. The land was. So then SG: they made a profit out of selling some property. But in 1984, we had what we called the buyout. And like I told you, the story of Hamilton Park cannot be written without including Willie B. Johnson, who was very visionary. And she was beginning to see what was happening. This is our home and here she is.10
GH: What was happening? What was she seeing?
SG: Well, she saw the writing on the tall wall. And she... including buildings were beginning to rise all around.
GH: Hamilton Park was being closed in...
SG: Yes.
GH: ...by the growth?
SG: Yes.
GH: And these are the same people who experienced the same thing in north Dallas?
SG: Yes.
GH: So this time, the outcome was different?
SG: Yes, because we had experienced it once before, you see.
GH: So...
SG: So...
GH: So there was a lesson learned.
SG: We learned a lesson. If you've noticed? I don't know how many lights you saw, but this was a man's effort to decorate Hamilton Park.
GH: Yes, ma'am.
SG: Did you...
GH: How many people live in...yes, I did notice that...
SG: Seven hundred and fifty families.
GH: And...
SG: ...are in this, 750 families.
GH: Several hundred houses.
SG: No, 750 houses, are that many families.11
GH: Oh, I'm sorry.
SG: We do have an apartment complex. We fought it for a long time, but we have...we were not successful there. And it was built. It's really not on Hamilton Park land. Ah, actually, Hamilton Park was supposed to stop at the school - Town Street. But because the Blacks were so successful in paying for their homes, and keeping up their places, and the need was still great, they added the rest of the streets that you see back here. And in 19...
GH: How did the neighborhood, led by Ms. Johnson, end up resisting the improvement?
SG: They listened to her. They listened to her, and we followed her lead.
GH: And what direction did that take you?
SG: Well, you see, we're still here. We don't know for how long.
GH: But what specifically did the neighborhood do to prevent the...
SG: We had meetings galore! We summoned lawyers. We got advice from many lawyers. And what they wanted to do was SG: purchase a whole strip of land. I mean a whole section; but everybody refused. I mean, a lot of people refused. GH: Who developed Hamilton Park to begin with? I mean, were developers...were they Black?
SG: No, it was interracial.
GH: Oh!
SG: It was interracial.12
GH: To begin with, the neighborhood was designed to be an interracial neighborhood?
SG: No, these were committee persons from the Black Chamber of Commerce and the interracial group.
GH: Now, who were these developers?
SG: Ah...
GH: The Dallas Citizens Interracial Association?
SG: Yes. They were the owners of this acreage.
GH: And, and it says the [inaudible] Foundation. Who was Mr. [inaudible]
SG: Carl [inaudible] was one of the members of the Dallas Citizens Interracial Association, Inc. And Jerome Crossman was the president at that time.
GH: Yes, ma'am.
SG: The Black persons were from the Negro Chamber of Commerce, and that included John Rice who was instrumental. He wasn't the only one, but he was the spokesperson for Dallas, Black Dallas Chamber of Commerce.
GH: H [inaudible] was a Jewish gentleman?
SG: Yes.
GH: Who made his fortune in the entertainment business, is that right, as a theater owner?
SG: I really don't...
GH: I think that's right.
SG: Well, you just could be right. Ah...
GH: His name has come up a lot.13
SG: Well, we have a street named for him because of his...
GH: Mr. Foster mentioned that he was a benefactor to Bishop.
SG: Well, he was a philanthropist throughout. Now he wasn't the only one. Ah, there were others. Milton T [inaudible], Reverend [inaudible], Dr. Kingston, hmm, Fred Florence. Oh, I shouldn't forget him.
GH: Oh, he was head of the Republic Bank.
SG: Yes.
GH: Now, I want to go back to what exactly the threat was, and what exactly the neighborhood's response was to the threat?
SG: We were offered $35 a square foot, and that sounded like big money.
GH: How long had people been here when those offers were made?
SG: They had been here 27-30 years.
GH: So that this was in the mid '80s, was still a significant amount of money?
SG: Yes, at $35 a square foot would bring anywhere... SG: something like $125,000. Sounded like big money, but where would we go? There would be no place to go. Several people got real excited about the offer, but then people like Willie B. Johnson said, "No, this is not a good deal." Then we found out that there were people that were offering to buy this land, had $2,900 in the bank. And...
GH: Twenty-nine hundred dollars?
SG: Two thousand nine hundred dollars. And, ah...
GH: So there...they weren't serious?14
SG: They were serious, and they sent out letters of commitment. And those persons who were anxious to sell did sign a letter of commitment and if they ever sell or their descendants sell, they're going to have to give up 1 percent of that - whatever they get - to these persons who offered to buy this land.
GH: Well, who were these people? What happened to them?
SG: His name was Ginsberg. He was the lawyer that was first ...who was first contacted, but he saw where he could make a mint. There were others and there was...
GH: He was the lawyer that was first contacted about a neighborhood group?
SG: And they found out that he wasn't right. Then there was a person named Pat Beebe. There was the Hamilton Financial Group that offered $30-$35 per [inaudible] square foot of land. Ah, they didn't offer you anything, not even your house. You know, they didn't want the house they wanted SG: the land. But...
GH: What were their plans, do you know?
SG: Well, I suppose they were going to make this into commercial areas, maybe tall, real tall buildings and this kind of thing. And they gave us a specific date to close. They sent everybody a letter, and if you signed this letter then you would be committed. We didn't sign, so this is our original letter. And we just kept the letter, but we didn't send it back.
GH: So why is the neighborhood still here, if this was regarded as a threat? Is it because of they just had $2,900 or...?
SG: Ah, no! I think that because of the strength of the Hamilton 15
Park Civic League, we were able to remain united.
GH: You're very proud of that...
SG: Yes, yes I am!
GH: ...organization.
SG: Because that same lady that I showed...every time you leave Hamilton Park and you see the traffic sign - light - there she got it. Every time you see a street light on each corner, she was responsible for it. She maintained a vigilance down to the city hall and took her concerns there. We had meetings on top of meetings. There were so many people that we had to use the school auditorium to meet in. Charles Smith was then the president of the Civic League, and the people who were there. And I tell you, Ruben Ginsberg, along SG:with his representatives for development, he never would name the development, no, never met with us.
GH: And you still don't know?
SG: We still don't know. We have our suspicions. Thelma S... [inaudible]... was one of the militants who lives out here. And she got her hands on a few commitments. She lost a lot of friends, and we didn't trust her too much anymore. But all this package right here are some of the people that that wanted to sell...buy our property.
GH: You weren't eager to sell at all?
SG: Oh, a few people came out here and told me if I'd sell, and I told them that, No, I wouldn't sell. That they could build, just so they left me enough room to drive in my driveway, they could 16
build, you know, tall buildings on either side of me, and I wasn't selling. Lots of people were angry because...but they soon found out that we were right. They found out that this developer and lawyer had been put in jail - prison.
GH: They were?
SG: Yes, because they were not honest.
GH: On this deal, or was it another deal?
SG: No, on this deal, on this deal.
GH: So...
SG: We call it the "Great Buy Out".
GH: So your lawyers really prevailed, then. Who were the lawyers who helped the neighborhood?
SG: Oh, I think we had several lawyers.
GH: A team.
SG: A team of lawyers. I can't remember all of them.
GH: [inaudible]...
SG: The record can speak for itself.
GH: Sure, tell me how how Hamilton Park got its name?
SG: It got its name from Dr. Richard T. Hamilton. He envisioned a community like this many, many years ago before it ever was conceived. And when he, when we finally got it developed it was named for him.
GH: I see, and you consider this community a first, but what was it the first of?
SG: Yes, it was the first kind of community. Actually, it was the first in the United States, I understand.17
GH: The first what, now?
SG: The first kind of community in the United States where Blacks had an opportunity to buy their property at a modest price and live more comfortable than they had in the past.
GH: Was there a Dallas suburb that was predominately Black...
SG: No.
GH: ...before this one?
SG: No.
GH: So this was the first Black...
SG: This was the first.
GH: Dallas suburb, so-to-speak.
SG: It was not a suburb, it was an island. And people riding SG: on the central expressway never knew it existed. And sometimes you can see T...
GH: How much land is there? Do you know how many acres?
SG: Yes, 170 some acres. One hundred seventy acres of land, and it was built for 720 people - families - and every sixth house has the same floor plan. And they tried to keep it with a concept so that it would be very attractive to the eye. And every Sunday, people from all around would come and just look. You'd find many of us out in the yard, landscaping our own landscape and everything.
GH: What else was out here?
SG: Cotton patches.
GH: Nothing else was out here? There were no...obviously there was no LBJ then? Well, what were the steps that were taken? Was 18
there any effort taken to protect the zoning in the area?
SG: Yes, we united with the Civic League, through the efforts and initiation of Ms. Willie B. Johnson. And we continued to go to the city council and stay on top of the zoning ordinance so that it would be in accordance with the mandate that we had first organized in Hamilton Park.
GH: What kind of...
SG: Response did we get?
GH: No, what kind of developments did they plan or were you threatened with the industrial type...
SG: We were zoned strictly residential, but high top dogs SG: tried to infiltrate it with such things as a cement plant. And...
GH: Which would have been right on the edge...
SG: Yes, right where...
GH: And what was your response to the cement plant?
SG: Well, we fought it and we won our case.
GH: Ms. Johnson organized...
SG: Yes, she certainly did. She was instrumental in alerting the citizens. And we had large representations to go before the city council. And we had this very strong council person, and we've been fortunate enough to have one every election since I've been out here. I can think of Roland Tucker, and he knew whether we voted for him. When you would go to him, he'd say, "Let's see, did you vote for me?" He knew. We had Dean Vanderbilt. We had Max Wells. We had ...and we knew them personally because we 19
invited them to come and they came. And I received a Christmas card from our councilman - councilperson - Donna Halstead. And she has been just precious. And all we had to do is get familiar with them, tell them what we want, and then beg them to encourage all of the other councilpersons to vote for us. It's been not easy, but it has been a good process.
GH: But the...so the neighborhood had political clout?
SG: We have clout. We have so much clout.
GH: How how many of you are registered to vote in the neighborhood?
SG: Ooo, there are about 1,200 persons.
GH: The population is about 1,200 or 1,200 registered to vote?
SG: Twelve hundred registered voters.
GH: Out of a population of what?
SG: Oh.
GH: We mentioned the 750 families, but...
SG: I've forgotten, but averaging 720 houses and nearly everybody is a registered voters.
GH: And at least two people per house.
SG: At least two, and then some more. Because, you see, my grandson can vote now, and he loves to vote. So that would make three out of this household.
GH: Has a person from the neighborhood ever run for office?
SG: Yes, yes. We've had...
GH: What office?
SG: Ah, he didn't win, but that was for precinct chairperson. 20
And we've had two precinct chairpersons out here that have been here all along.
GH: Now this is not one precinct neighborhood?
SG: This is one precinct.
GH: It is one precinct.
SG: Let me tell you how.
GH: Well, wouldn't the chairperson have to have come from the neighborhood if it's one precinct?
SG: Yes, but two or three people might have campaigned. In SG: other words, two or more, but they've done such a good job, we just stopped we elect the same chairperson each time.
GH: But has anyone run for an office where he has had to attract votes from outside the neighborhood, that is from your other neighboring subdivisions in the area?
SG: Well, you see, it depends on what office you're talking about.
GH: Well, anything. City council, justice of the peace.
SG: We have one representative for state representative that doesn't live out here, but he's in our senatorial district. That would be Sam Hudson. And we have...we are predominately Democratics, but we have a few Republicans. So, we have that faction. And this past election, two of our former students - one was a Republican, one was a Democrat. It made it very hard to make a decision because I don't go with the party, I go with the person. I wanted to tell you about when we got our precinct. We used to have to go to Vickory to vote. And there were so many of 21
us; there were so many until I guess the people in Vickory said, "Don't let that many folk - Black - like them come over there."
GH: What is Vickory?
SG: Vickory is a little sub-hamlet over here off of [inaudible] Avenue.
GH: I see.
SG: And because we were so strong when we voted for Kennedy, we got our own precinct. It was then. And, on any given SG: issue, if it's a hot issue you're going to find us standing outside in line to vote.
GH: It sounds like a pretty cohesive neighborhood.
SG: I think so!
GH: Unlike north Dallas, in a way.
SG: Well, you see, north Dallas was so diverse, not by race but by culture and people having come from little suburbs - not suburbs, but the rural areas. Not really familiar with what was going on.
GH: What do you think that the rural migration has done to this whole Black cohesiveness in the city? The culture is different in the country than in the city?
SG: Very much so.
GH: What has it done done to our sense of self or...
SG: Well, in many ways it has enriched the community, but in other ways it has kind of filtered the lackadaisical atti-tude...
GH: Lackadaisical.
SG: ...lackadaisical attitude and so...22
GH: That's part of the history of every American group, almost, that goes from rural to urban.
SG: Yes, because...
GH: Do you think we've experienced that differently than other ethnic groups?
SG: No, we have not, because I was looking at the Amerasians. These are the Americans that were, that are Asians. They are SG: many, I mean, they have more cohesiveness. But then you have so many divisions within that group. You have your Koreans, your Vietnamese, you have Japanese, your Chinese.
GH: Well, and that's true, I suppose, on the coast.
SG: But we have...you'll be surprised how many are in Dallas.
GH: But that migration was a different kind of migration...
SG: Yes, yes.
GH: ...and it didn't necessarily go through the same kind of rural stage.
SG: No, no, it did not. But you see they come with so many other handicaps. A lot do not speak English at all. They know how to count money, and they know how...
GH: Is there tension between the the Asians and the Black community?
SG: We're experiencing a little. Now just across Forest Lane, there is an Asian or an Oriental...I choose to call it an Oriental store. And we were curious and we went in there was dried fish just in a case. Ooh, the odor was terrible, and the foods that they have! And they made it known that they didn't want any 23
Blacks in there.
GH: How did they make it known?
SG: Well, they were told.
GH: I mean, they just told people, we don't want you in here?
SG: We don't want you in here. So we don't patronize them.
GH: What country are these people from?
SG: Actually, I can't identify them. I think that they are SG: Koreans. I'm not sure. Then, on this side, in our little shopping center out there, we do have some Vietnamese. And they too are somewhat...a little hostile. But the kids go in there and they are the perpetrators. They snatch and steal from them and everything. And they're very cautious about how they treat their customers. Now we patronize them a little. We buy ice and bread, when we have to, and milk for emer-gencies. Their prices are double, compared to Tom Thumb and Albertson's and that kind of thing. But the main thing was, they were receiving lots of hostility from our young Blacks. And we got together, at least the pastors from the various churches in our community got together, and suggested that they hire a Black clerk, which would ease some of the tension. And that has helped a lot. It has helped a lot. The first occupants that rented up there - their names were O, so I introduced myself, "How do you do? I'm Mrs. Gee." And she said, "My name is Mrs. O." And so that established a little rapport.
GH: And it spells GO!
SG: Okay!24
GH: Now tell me what the relationship was, in old Dallas, between - that is, north Dallas, your old neighborhood - between the Black community and the adjoining community of Little Mexico, which was not that far away? Was there communication between the Mexican-Americans and the Black community?
SG: Not much. Not much. We were, as I told you, we were so isolated in our little community that we didn't even come in contact with another ethnic group. But then some of the boys who liked to venture out into the community, they did have friends that were Hispanic. But it wasn't prevalent.
GH: How would you characterize their relationship?
SG: Good. Good.
GH: As a school teacher, in your experience, how did how did relationships go...
G: Oh, it was so interesting when they started moving into the community. I had one little fellow whose name was Bonafacio Mendez. Bonafacio, he loved me. Oh, he really loved me. And he was the only Hispanic in the whole school. And one day he came running into the library, "Mrs. Gee, Mrs. Gee, they're after me, they're after me!" I said, "What happened, Bony?" He says, "Well, I told them, 'Throw the ball, nigger, throw the ball!'" He said, "Well, Mrs. Gee, they say 'Throw the ball, nigger.' Why can't I say it?" I said, "Well Bony, did you say, 'Throw the ball, nigger?'" He said, "Yeah, yeah!" And he said...
GH: They didn't want to be told.
SG: So I had to get them all together. I said, "Now, you see, 25
you've got Bonafacio mixed up. He thinks it's okay to...to say 'nigger', because you say 'nigger', and we're not going to call anybody anything but by our names, are we? And then we won't get angry, will we?" I said, "You owe Bonafacio SG: an apology, and we're not going to fight over names because when you're out on the playground you say 'nigger'. So it's all right to say 'nigger' inside, right?" "No, we're not going to say it all!" And we have it like that. Interesting that you would mention Bonafacio. I have a red-head cousin, and she...the kids did not know that she was related to me, but Bonafacio was crazy about her too. She's red, a natural red-head and very fair skin and everything, and Bonafacio liked her. And she liked him, and I would really like to see Bonafacio now. The principal, on the last day of school, announced that there would be no students to come to school. Well, Bonafacio loved to work in the library. He used to say, "Mrs. Gee, you need some help, and I'll come and help you with the books. And I will protect you if the principal gets after you." I said, "But Bonafacio, I don't want you to get in trouble." He said, "That's all right, I'm coming in and help you." And he did, he did. I would love to see him now.
GH: Well, you should try to look him up!
SG: Well, I tried, but you know, he was an immigrant. He might have gone back to Mexico. I just don't know. I just don't know. There were two other students; they didn't stay very long - Hispanics. But they soon traveled away, going to school.
GH: Now we were talking about this urban-rural or rural to urban 26
migration. Did that change any of our...
SG: ...values.
GH: ...values or behavioral patterns?
SG: Yes, most of the kids who came from the rural tried to act like what they heard or their concept or what they did in the big city, you know. Yes, it did change a lot...
GH: And what...how did that change manifest itself? What did they do differently?
SG: Well, it just so happened that the parents of these children who came from the rural areas became more involved, and we had more parental involvement. And I think, it just kind of balanced out.
GH: What did it do to Juneteenth? Was...because I someone told me about your experiences with Juneteenth and how...
SG: I guess I was like other Blacks. Ah, we celebrated Juneteenth, okay, with the red soda water and everything and with the picnics and the ice cream. And I said, "Well, I'm not even going to tell my child about it." So we went from the '40s to the '60s with her not even being aware of Juneteenth.
GH: And why didn't you celebrate it?
SG: I felt that it was demeaning, at that time.
GH: Why?
SG: Ah, it created some kind of anger in me. This is...
GH: Just being reminded of slavery?
SG: Yes, all that, and I resented it. But then when I reached a rude awakening - this is part of my heritage and SG: I've got 27
to reclaim it. And so, since that time, I've tried to makeup for it.
GH: Since the '60s?
SG: Yes.
GH: So what do you do on Juneteenth now?
SG: I was the grand marshall! And I had on my bonnet, authentic bonnet, and my bonnet and everything. And I modeled it out at Fair Park.
GH: So what is the local...and has the Dallas Juneteenth celebration grown since the '60s?
SG: It has escalated! It has escalated to the extent that people look forward...in Richardson they want to know what are you doing? The photographers come out and put us on the front page of their newspaper. And we have in the parade...we have a parade in the neighborhood. And it has grown tremendously. GH: You're a true believer now?
SG: Digging up our roots. And we have speeches, and we have celebrities of all sorts. If you notice the gymnasium - it's only two in Dallas like it. And it's filled with people. We have our barbecue and our red soda water and our fried chicken.
GH: It's like a country Juneteenth!
SG: It is, really!
GH: Have you ever seen a country Juneteenth, have you ever...
SG: Yes, yes. As I said, when I was a child we came out here - this was the country. It took us...we would come out SG: Greenville Avenue in a wagon - not a wagon a truck - loaded 28
with kids from the church. And we would meet over here at the church over here on Cort Road and play all day. The ice cream that mother made, and the fried chicken she fried, and everything.
GH: So, you did have some Juneteenths in your blood?
SG: Yes, yes I did! But as I said, I...
GH: After World War II, you changed.
SG: I began to...I hated the idea. I thought it was quite demeaning.
GH: I see you got...
SG: Yes, re-educated! Re-educated! I truly resented it at that time, and I said I would never let my daughter... And we didn't go to the Fair Park either. She...
GH: You mentioned that.
SG: ...and she doesn't care about going now.
GH: You boycotted that?
SG: Yes. Speaking of boycotts, I personally boycotted Neiman-Marcus.
GH: Were there ever any organized boycotts here during the Civil Rights Movement?
SG: Very few.
GH: What were those few?
SG: Well, I wasn't in any of them, so I don't really know.
GH: But you think that there might have been some?
SG: Yes, yes, yes, definitely! Transportation-wise...I just SG: don't know. I didn't participate in any of them. But I, as I said, I had a personal boycott about Neiman-Marcus. You know, 29
all the girls liked to show, I got it from Neiman-Marcus. Well, there was a time when my husband would receive a bond at Christmas time, for a bonus at Christmas time.
GH: Where did your husband work at?
SG: He...we were...when we first got married, he worked at Firestone, and he would always receive a bonus. And the bonus was in the form of a gift certificate from Neimans. And so I would go to Neimans to have it honored. I was ushered in a little corner of the room, like that or something, and I resented that.
GH: Someone was telling me that there was a problem with department stores, where that they didn't want Black women trying on clothes or hats?
SG: No, not anything.
GH: Now, which was this? Just Neimans or were there other stores?
SG: There was Sanger's, A. Harris. So much so. A. Harris... Mrs. Tobilowski, Jewish woman, they resented her too at A. Harris, so her husband bought the store.
GH: Really, that was the response?
SG: And then Blacks could go in there and purchase things.
GH: Now, what was the response of the Black community when when this became known? Did did folks organize and...
SG: There was no real organization.
GH: But it was...it did get some publicity?
SG: Oh, yes! It got quite a bit of publicity. And you would go to Sanger's and they would say, "Oh, Dr. So-and-So's wife bought 30
that; wouldn't you like to have that also?" "No, I don't want it." They would bring the clothes to you in a little closet. And...
GH: As if they didn't want you going into...
SG: Oh, you didn't go in, you didn't go into the bridal, you didn't go on the floor, period. You'd go through and they'd usher you in.
GH: You know, ironically, that's what they did with their best customers too, is to bring...
SG: But it's in a different atmosphere, and for that reason...
GH: You would of rather browsed around the racks?
SG: Yes, because that's about all I do, anyway, is browse. And they had one fragrance that I liked at Neimans, that I really liked. And so, that's the only thing I buy there now. I have a credit card, but I never use it. I just have it. And I still to this day - don't use it. And A. Harris was the only store that was liberal enough to open up a charge account for Blacks. There were other smaller places, but they were the larger one. Then eventually Sanger and all saw what a sleeping giant they were ignoring. And...
GH: So what year did they wake up to that?
SG: Oh, it was around '66, '67, in that general area. And SG: the poor teachers went crazy.
GH: How so?
SG: Oh, I got this at Sanger's. I got this at Neiman's. And you would remember that I told you about staff development. We had 31
separate staff developments before integration. And that was the time that the White teachers came out of their meetings in their corsages and their beautiful hats, and everything, and spent a fortune for that one day to impress each other. And by the time I started working, we were the rebels, my group. And we would go without a hat. We would go in anything but slacks. We didn't wear pants. I guess I was kind of a rebel. And the older teachers would look at us with askance. But it soon kind of mellowed down, and styles changed. Everything changed. I'd never thought I'd wear pants in the classroom. And then I found out I didn't have any dresses. And I have seen several kinds of changes, you know, but still, my attitude toward developing achievers was my main goal.
GH: Now you, as the teacher, as the influence on these young minds, you changed the way that you worked, though, after a time. When did you leave the classroom and become a librarian?
SG: Four years after I...
GH: ...First started?
SG: ...started teaching.
GH: And you worked as a librarian until you retired?
SG: I worked as a librarian until two years before I retired. I worked in that Ross Perot Prototypic School.
GH: That's right! Obviously, we've already covered this.
SG: Yes.
GH: I wanted to make sure that we had that. You retired in?
SG: '81.32
GH: '81.
SG: ...in '81. The funds ran out for the program that I was in. I was a resource teacher for curriculum development in multicultural studies. Concentrating on Asians, Indians, Blacks, and in India, not East Indians.
GH: Okay. I'm sorry that was about five interviews ago. Three of them were yours.
SG: I did not mention it before. But then, I was assigned an itinerant teacher, Title I teacher, where I assisted other teachers. It wasn't what you exactly called an administrator, but I went and checked on each teacher to see if they were implementing the program as it was prescribed.
GH: I see by your clock here that it's after eleven at night. I'm starting to fade a little bit.
SG: Well, I can understand.
GH: But we have a few more minutes on the tape. Is there anything that we haven't covered for this go around - and I do expect to be back - that you'd like to cover?
SG: Well, I'd just like to mention a few changes that were made before '65. We had organizations, you know, like the SG: classroom teachers. We had a credit union - all Black. We identified with the Association for Childhood Education by - second Dallas branch of the ACE and this kind of thing. And I was instrumental in being a part of that and became from 1948 until 1955, we had the second Dallas branch. Then we went into the full organization. With the credit union, we had the credit union 33
where we had our separate organization.
GH: Is there anything about the impact of desegregation or...
SG: Now that was the bonus.
GH: ...that you'd like to to leave with us as a thought or impression?
SG: It has had its good points, and its bad points. And I would think that at this particular time in 1993, there is a lots to be recaptured. But at the same time, the dream is not completely dead that Martin Luther King had. And each time you can stay at a hotel of your choice, wherever your money will take you, that's a bonus, materialistically, for the things that you can afford. I think it's a bonus.
GH: The losses were what?
SG: Well, the losses were the moral values. I still attri-bute lots to that. And, how can I say it, it had its good points, and it had its bad points.
GH: Before we come to a complete stop, I wanted to ask you something that you did mention to me, and that's that James Mason Brewer was an influence on you. How was that?
SG: His folktales were so good. He would walk into the SG: classroom, and he would start out by saying - remember now, he was a Spanish teacher.
GH: Now where did you study with...?
SG: At Booker T. Washington High School. He would come in and say, "I don't like that thing coming down the...I don't like that thing coming down the...", and he's talking to his friend the 34
preacher. And he says, "No, by God, and I don't either." They were having a big baptismal on the Brazos River, and they didn't want to frighten the people because this big snake was coming. And they were...he began to sing. "I don't like that thing coming down the..." And the preacher would answer, "No, by God, and I don't either." And that would get our attention. And he was a good teacher, and he was inspirational. And when I saw this article, I could not help but enjoy it, because it was so much like him.
GH: This was in Dallas Sun, Dallas Morning News Sunday Magazine,...
SG: 1970.
GH: August 23, 1970.
SG: That's been, what, 20 years ago?
GH: Twenty-three.
SG: Yes, that's right!
GH: Did he know that you became a teacher yourself?
SG: No.
GH: You never were in touch with him after that?
SG: No, I never did. And I think he's dead now. I'm not SG: sure. I just enjoyed reading what he had written, and he wrote many articles. And anytime I found something about him, I'd get it. And...
END OF TAPE II 35
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Sadye Gee - Tape III
DATE: December 21, 1993
PLACE: Dallas, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Gary Houston, Research Associate
TAPE III, Side 1
GH: Now, how did you fail to emulate Mr. Brewer's style?
SG: Well, I liked his style so much because it captured the audience and the children's attention so quickly, and so I used it with my Greek mythology, I put it in my literature, and encouraged the kids to become interested in folklore and to know the value of folklore and how it got started.
GH: Well, that's something that students probably are not receiving anymore.
SG: No, they don't. And I've had so many experiences it gives me an ego trip. I volunteered after I retired at the American Red Cross, and this family was in desperate need of some help because their house had burned. And I called Human Services, here in Dallas, and the young lady was very rude and she was putting me off. And I said, "Well, please have her to call Mrs. Gee at Red Cross extension, whatever it was." She said, "Mrs. Gee!" Then she said, she started reciting a poem that I had my children to learn. Are you the same Mrs. Gee? Yes, I am. Then I got the red carpet 36
treatment, and I was successful in helping this family.
GH: What other organizations have have you volunteered GH: for?
SG: Association for American Association for Retired Teachers, and also for American Retired AARP.
GH: Aha. And what sort of capacity did you serve?
SG: I was Assistant State Director.
GH: Oh, you are!
SG: I felt real honored to have had the position for four years because it was strictly volunteer. We were not paid. I might not have pleased one lady, and she called the office to have me fired. It was so funny because she wondered how much money did I get, and that I had no business with the job simply because she was not satisfied with the answer that I had to give her. Well, we have guidelines to follow, and that was the reason she was very displeased with my performance. All-in-all, I was thrilled over my experiences with AARP. I served six chapters, and some of my chapters were 225 members strong. And I organized one myself. And that's quite an experience.
GH: I can imagine. Is there a Huntleigh Park? I'm sorry, is there a Hamilton Park?
SG: Of course! 4264 is the one that I organized. And it was there that I was appointed as Assistant State Director.
GH: What other organizations are you a member of?
SG: Well, let's see, I'm Park and Recreation Advisory GEE, Sadye
37
Council. I was on a Motion Picture Classification Board for the city. And the Senior Affairs Commission.
GH: Oh, really! That must have been fun!
SG: Well, the...it was! But I don't...I can't be still too long. I like to...
GH: Oh, so you don't necessarily go to films on your own?
SG: It was very confining. But I made a commitment and I had to abide by it. And we evaluated the films, but it has zero... It's bellied up. They canceled it. They didn't see any reason for having it any longer. But I did enjoy some of the pictures that we saw. Some of it was...we evaluated on the basis of profanity...
GH: Violence?
SG: Violence, sex, this kind of thing for parental guidance. And what other organizations? The church, I...archives and history in the church.
GH: And yours is a neighborhood church?
SG: Yes, the Hamilton Park United Methodist Church. We're the farthest Black United Methodist Church out here. And so we have a large congregation. People come from McKinney, Plano, Grapevine, Terrell, all around. And so we have to have two services, and we're building a new church.
GH: Tell me, do you think that the church...what role has the church played in desegregation?
SG: Ah, it hasn't been as strong as I should like in some GEE, Sadye
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some instances, but we do have a ministry where we are addressing those problems. The last student minister from SMU was a White girl - White woman - and she had reactions and SG: mixed feelings. she was afraid to come out here, I'll say it like that.
GH: What has desegregation done to change the way the churches function? Or has it?
SG: Well, they're working on it, I suppose. But it's just so far that I can see a minister going. You know, it's almost like...well, we'll take the case of [inaudible] Holmes.
GH: How? Uh-huh.
SG: He could have been a superintendent...not a superin-tendent, he could have been a bishop, but there was too much political dissension. We have much to do to achieve total integration, I would think. But we're working on it.
GH: Within the Methodist Church itself?
SG: When I say we...I mean the Methodist Church.
GH: But...go ahead.
SG: I just want to tell you about this little minister. This was her finals, to work out here with this different culture. And the night she left, she made all these confessions known - that she was afraid to come out here first and now she would not want to go to any other place.
GH: Have you found that, with desegregation, Whites have GEE, Sadye
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joined Black churches? Or Blacks have joined White churches?
SG: Yes, we have quite a few members now at our church - some are mixed couples, and some have just chosen it on their own.
GH: Has that changed the churches in any way?
SG: No, not at all. When I first observed, we said it's so SG: cold in the church and we wouldn't even say amen. And now, you would think you were in a Pentecostal church, and I imagine some do dance because the music is so good.
GH: Does your choir have a drummer?
SG: We have a drummer, we have a base fiddle, we have a horn, we have a Yamaha piano, we have an organ...
GH: Oooh, you are rocking!
SG: I mean, we...and every beat.
GH: B [inaudible], as they say.
SG: But you know what? It attracts the youngsters, the young people. And I'd rather see them rock and roll in church than see them rock and roll on Mark [inaudible].
GH: Of course!
SG: And they participate in the other organizations of the church. And, see, even old folks, like me, we really like it, if you like that kind of music. And the little Anglo mini-ster, first she was looking to see how do you get the beat. When she left, she had the beat. That was interesting because she really tried. The other thing that was shocking GEE, Sadye
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to me was the fact that I never thought that I would be impressed with a female in the pulpit. Now we have hired an associate pastor, and she's a minister...I mean, she's a female. And I've seen so many changes, you know, that you related to a few minutes ago for the better or for the worse. We have at our center, representatives coming to us from DART in high positions.
GH: That's the Dallas...
SG: Area Rapid Transit. We have officers - female Black and White - patrolling this area, females and males.
GH: Do you think, then, that desegregation has had an in-fluence on women's right?
SG: To some extent, yes, I do. Not enough, but I'm not a member of NOW or any of those. But,...
GH: Well, well, in the church it sounds as if it might have?
SG: Well, it has. And the non-traditional positions that women are gradually getting. I was a little disappointed with Mrs. Elder - Dr. Elders.
GH: Now who's that?
SG: Dr. Elders, the Surgeon General.
GH: Oh, yes, of course! In Washington.
SG: Aha. I was a little disappointed because of her son.
GH: Aha.
SG: And I hope she will be able to be successful and every-GEE, Sadye
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thing.
GH: What do you think of President Clinton?
SG: I don't know yet. I like him. He advocated change, and I haven't seen too much change yet. But I think he hasn't had a chance to really prove himself. I like his style, and I like the...and I like his wife. Ah, I think she's real strong. I think she's his strongest supporter. And the statement she made, "I'm going to stand by my man." She's really proving it. And this health reform is the thing that's SG:going to make him or break him. And he's getting strong support every day. And he has...I think, the AARP now has gone with his program.
GH: Who do you think the strongest American president has been, in favor of civil rights?
SG: Hmmm. Well, it wasn't Johnson.
GH: You don't think it was Johnson?
SG: I don't think so.
GH: Why not? Some people have said it was.
SG: Well, I know some have said...
GH: But no, no, I'm just asking why...why not?
SG: Initially, I don't think he was. But having followed in the footsteps of Kennedy and he wanted...well, having been President, I think he had a change of heart and a change of spirit. My strongest President would be Roosevelt, anytime. Because without Roosevelt's program and his New Deal, I GEE, Sadye
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would not be where I am today, because it was he who made it possible for me to even go to college on the NYA. It was my mother who was able to feed us through those lean years with the WPA. Ah, it was Roosevelt who put Mayor [inaudible] on one side and his wife on the other, even though he, too, was a womanizer. But it had nothing to do with his personal life. Ah, I give him first preference as best President.
GH: How about in Texas? Have there been any leaders any, mainstream, that is, White politicians or leaders who you would give high marks for civil rights achievements?
SG: Yes, Martin Cross. I really have been impressed. I don't know him personally. But Martin Cross...
GH: Cross is a congressman from this district?
SG: Yes. And then, of course, I like Ann Richards, our governor. I've been most impressed with her. She has really made some strides, in my opinion. She's where she's needed, most of the time.
GH: We've been talking about change a lot. Are there any other thoughts as we wind up this evening on change? On social change, civil rights change?
SG: Well, we can culminate for right now. And...
GH: Well, thank you for giving me some additional time. I'm glad you suggested that we do this.
SG: Like I said, this is the time, that has been at night, I get my best thoughts, I do my best writing, everything. GEE, Sadye
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When I'm not disturbed by anybody or the telephone, this kind of thing. And that's when I do my best work, after three o'clock.
GH: Three o'clock a.m.?
SG: Yeah, uh-huh.
END OF INTERVIEW